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47x137 Driggs Infantry gun

Przemek

Well-Known Member
Hello

I have hulse 47x137R with stamps "Driggs & Ecoxxxxxx, USA"

Such companies Driggs Cannon was at the contest inPoland at infantry guns. PL bought one this gun. I'm looking forinformation about this gun and info/drawings ammunition. This is serial production?

Thanks
drigs.jpg
 
When was this ? Are you certain this is not 37mm. Driggs merged with Savage Arms during WW1 and I doubt could have taken part in 1920s trials ????
 
Hulse is at 100% - 47x137R.

In 1925 Poland bought four guns - 47mm Beardmore, 47mm Bofors, 47mm Driggs and St. Chamond for 112.000 zł.
Tested this in Poland, and selected Driggs and Beardmore. In 1928 Poland ordered three guns Beardmore and three Driggs. Because faults Driggs cannons that had to be returned for repair to the US, comparative trials are not held. Driggs cannons had to retur to the Polish in February 1929, but it is not known thether this happened.
Its all...
 
The 47mm was called a 3 pounder in the US Navy. They were obsolete before WW1 and by the 1920's were used only on small craft like Coast Guard vessels. Many were sold as salvage, and i would guess someone fixed up one of these scrapped 3 pounders on a field carriage and was trying to sell them to unsuspecting buyers. This was quite a common thing to do in the arms trade and probably still is. This would likely explain the failure of the sasmple weapon during the trials. As GSpragge has said, Driggs Ordnance was bought up by Savage Arms during WW1 so would have been out of bussiness by the 1920's.Interesting story here. I don't believe that 3 pounder cases are too common, so you have a nice case there.
 
I don't believe this is a normal 3 pounder case. A few years ago I was able to take pictures of a case like this. I had doubts it could be a cut of and as you can see it has been forced on the neck. Przemek has the same case so ....too much for a coincident ?442 Driggs base.jpg443 Driggs.jpg
 
highlandotter - Thanks for info !
Interesting story here. I don't believe that 3 pounder cases are too common, so you have a nice case there.

Yes it's very interesting, this case have Polish stamp.


I don't believe this is a normal 3 pounder case. A few years ago I was able to take pictures of a case like this. I had doubts it could be a cut of and as you can see it has been forced on the neck. Przemek has the same case so ....too much for a coincident ?

It's the same, thanks for photos ! Neck is fatal condition, but i measured the in optimum height [not deformated] and I think its x137mm. 47mm driggs łuska.jpg
 
If Driggs was still operating (as a subsidiary of Savage) I do wonder what they were selling or trying to sell. And how much longer they lasted ----
 
William H Driggs was a US Navy officer who designed a number of improvements to rapid-firing guns starting in the early 1890s. By 1900 he had 15 patents for both complete guns and components, such as sights, mounts and breeches, along with one for a banding shell. He also had one patent jointly with his younger brother Louis (also an engineer), and one for a sliding breech mechanism jointly with Seaton Schroeder. On his retirement from the Navy he manufactured some guns, mostly 3-inch and Driggs-Schroeder 6pdr, on his own as the Driggs-Seabury Gun & Ammunition Company, and licensed the designs out to other manufacturers as well. The USN bought 259 and the Army 41 Driggs-Schroeder guns through 1909, and license-built 125 1pdr and 112 3-inch guns at the Washington Navy Yard.


His complete guns appear to have fallen out of favor with the introduction of the M1900-1903 series of guns, although some of his components continued to be used, and in 1902 the company barely escaped bankruptcy. In 1908 William Driggs died. Thus, by the time WW I came around Driggs-Seabury was primarily manufacturing smaller weapons, in particular Lewis MGs under license for Britain and Canada. This brought sufficient prosperty that in 1915 they acquired a majority interest in Savage Arms of Utica NY, although they chose to use the Savage name after that time.


In the meantime many of William's patents had passed by will to his younger brother Louis. Louis had not given up on the artillery side of the family business and to that end formed the Driggs Ordnance and Engineering Company, unrelated to the earlier Driggs-Seabury. Louis pinned his hopes on utilizing the Driggs systems to create a modern 3-inch anti-aircraft gun. Unfortunately, by the time he was ready to launch his project the war had ended, leaving the victors with huge stocks of weapons of all descriptions.


With very little money and no useable manufacturing capacity he launched two sales drives in 1928: one to Turkey for the 3-in AA gun, and one to Poland for the AA gun and a 47mm infantry accompanying gun. The Poles decided they did not have the money for the 3-inch, but did place an order for 3 infantry guns for trials purposes. The Driggs sales representative in Constantinople then told the Turks that Driggs had secured a contract from Poland for guns and that he would permit them to take advantage of the fact that Driggs was right now in full-scale production. He neglected to mention that the sale was only for three small guns. The Turks were wowed and signed a provisional contract for about 70 guns for $3.2 million. Unfortunately, they required a $240,000 performance bond.


The firm was unable to come up with the money and the contract revoked and went to Vickers instead. Shortly thereafter, having almost succeeded, the Driggs Ordnance & Engineering Co folded up.

It is really cool that you came up with a round for this very rare weapon.
 
As a follow-on to my prior post, further research indicates that the Driggs Ordnance & Engineering Co proposed a hybrid mortar-howitzer in 3-in and 4-in caliber that was apparently trialled by the US Army in 1935. The firm was still in existence in 1937, when the Brazilian government inquired of the US Army about their standing. Apparently Driggs proposed building an arsenal in Brazil (presumably with Brazilian funding). The War Department replied that they had no knowledge whatsoever of Drigg's finances and that no Driggs guns were in service at that time, aside from a small number of Driggs-Seabury guns in coastal batteries that were being withdrawn as obsolete. In 1938 they were still marketing a variety of guns, including mountain guns, 37mm AT guns, 47mm infantry guns and their mortar/howitzer. So apparently Louis was a scrapper, or at least a dreamer.
 
Thanks Firebird for the great information. You must have really dug deep into the archives somewhere. Thanks again.
 
You are certainly welcome. I have learned a lot from this forum. I am not a collector, but I am an archive rat, so if I can help, I will.
 
I don't know how I missed the beginning of this thread, but I will add one more piece to the puzzle. I have a 57mm/6Pdr howitzer case that is marked Driggs. It is a very short case, and severely bottlenecked. I will need to take a photo and post. I have some other items such as cases and fuzes that are also marked Driggs, and I've always wondered about the driggs company and their history. This has been a very informative thread.
 
Ah, if you are going to go early (and I suspect that is what your 57mm is) then things get more complicated.


WH Driggs formed the Driggs Ordnance Co in the early 1890s. The earliest record of a shareholder meeting I have found is dated 1894. Driggs Ordnance produced some weapons for the Army and the Navy, but apparently in small numbers. In May 1897 the Driggs-Seabury Gun & Ammunition Co was formed, with both WH and Louis Driggs as officers (along with three others, none named Seabury). They immediately won contracts for the production of various weapons, most notably an Army contract for 40 6pdr guns and 40 15pdr guns. The 6pdr was demonstrated to the public in July 1899, where it reportedly fired at 60 rounds per minute using a novel semi-automatic system. The Driggs-Seabury Co apparently took over from the early Driggs Ordnance as there is no further mention of the latter in documentation.



The D-S company suffered financial problems in 1901 and was sold to a holding company that also owned the arch-rival American Ordnance Company in 1902. In August 1905 a new firm was formed in Pennsylvania named the Driggs-Seabury Ordnance Co, and they purchased and took over the assets of the now-defunct D-S Gun & Ammunition Co.


D-S continued operating and in March of 1915 the president of the company surprised folks by announcing that he was a pacifist and that his company had turned down orders from many nations for ordnance. In fact, he said, the company had last made shells eight years ago (if that helps dating ammunitions). With all that money at stake he was quietly replaced by a new president, AE Borie, who quickly turned to manufacturing Lewis machine guns under license.


There had not been a Driggs involved with Driggs-Seabury (or, indeed, ordnance) since the company was sold in 1902. Louis, however, formed the Driggs Ordnance & Engineering Co in 1915. Not surprisingly, this caused sufficient confusion that D-S Ordnance Co was forced to issue an official statement in October 1915 that their company had no connection with or interest in a new New York corporation known as the Driggs Ordnance Company and further, they knew nothing about the new firm.


So, if you are looking at corporate markings the chronology will be:
c.1893 to 1897 Driggs Ordnance Co
1897-1905 Driggs-Seabury Gun & Ammunition Co
1905-1915 - Driggs-Seabury Ordnance Co
1915-c.1939 Driggs Ordnance & Engineering Co


All of these were sequential manifestations of the same firm, except the last.
 
Excellent information you bring us Firebird! An archive rat like you is what we need.


Here is another Driggs foto , I found this one435 2 pounder headstamp.jpg436 2 pounder.jpg on the internet.
The picture shows an early 47mm cartridge. Reading the headstamp this cartridge was made by U.M.C.co. in order for the Driggs Ordnance Co am I right?
 
That's a tough one. The Driggs Ordnance and the apparent date of 1894 match up. So far, so good.

UMC Co is presumably Union Metallic Cartridge Co of Bridgeport, CT. I did not know they made ammo that big. In any event, they merged with Remington in 1912. So possibility no1 is that UMC was making ammunition for Driggs guns, presumably under Driggs license of some sort.

Possibility no2 is that UMC performed the loading and filling (LAP) for Driggs. It is notable that in March 1902 the firm of Laflin & Rand placed a lien on the Driggs-Seabury factory claiming that they had not been paid for filling shells for D-S. So it seems that Driggs did the metal work for the guns and ammo, but subcontracted the filling of the shells to someone else, not an uncommon arrangement.
 
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I'm aiming for Possibility no1. The UMC headstamp would be a bit large for only the loading and filling. Besides that I have a picture of the same caliber with only the UMC headstamp. Also a UMC/Driggs headstamp 1892 on the 37mm 1 Pounder Heavy.

439 47mm Hotchkiss.jpg242 1pdr heavy.jpg
 
UMC made casings for any one and all of the Driggs cases the I have are UMC with the Driggs stamp added. My 1892 case has an 1892 projectile made by PRATT & CADY Co HFD CT Pat Mar 22 92 , there is no mention of Driggs on the projectile. My 1894 projectile of the same design is marked DRIGGS PATENT FEB 28 1892 , MFG by the WM CRAMP & SONS & F.B. Co. dated 1894. The fuze is also made by UMC but has Driggs Patent on it JAN 7 90. These two are flat tipped base fuzed common shell. The Poole Engineering and Machine Co ended up making the Driggs projectile and fuze thought they are not marked as such. PE&M also produced subcaliber and the Army MKll projectles based on the same projectile only lengthened to varying degrees.

I came across the these images of a promotional subcal projectile by them.
 

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Very interesting stuff.

For what it's worth WH Driggs had three patents related to ammunition:
419143 - Fuze for shell
469631 - Banding Shell
818943 - Fuze for shell

These can be viewed by going to uspto.gov and searching patent images entering the patent numbers. He had 15 other patents related to the guns.
 
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