AA fuse from Dover - please help!

[Fossil Phil]

Good morning - my first post! I recently found a fuze and was recommended by a friend to come here to ask for your advice to help identify it.

I recently found this fuze lying in some rubble in some of the old Napoleonic moats at the Western Heights in Dover. It was covered in concretion so I spent about two weeks soaking it with ketchup and white wine vinegar to remove it. I was surprised how well it came up.

The area was very close to the location of 3"AA guns in WW1 and 3.7" guns in WW2 so given the fact that the shell had exploded whatever gun had fired it must have been firing near vertically.

I wondered if anyone could help me pin down the fuze type please? Unfortunately there are no markings or stamps and the bottom ring is missing. The closest I could find was on Wikipedia - image bottom right of the 3" HE shell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_3_inch_20_cwt

I sometimes take guided walks in the area so if could be identified I could show our groups. I can provide more photos if required.

Thank you.

 

[smle2009]

Hi Phil,
not my subject but looks like the remains of a No 80 fuze with the bottom ring and top missing,it could well be one of the Mk's of No 80 fuze that had an alloy top.

Cheers
Tony

 

[smle2009]

Thought I had one somewhere,this one is a No 80 Mk VII with the brass adapter to fit a 18Pr


Tony

 

[Fossil Phil]

Thank you Tony. That certainly looks like it to me. Please pardon a probably silly question, but if this is a WW1 fuze, did this particular type of fuze continue to be used for AA work into WW2, i.e. did the coastal defence 3.7" AA guns use this older type fuze as late as 1940? I wish I could pin down a date.

If it is WW1, I have a list of guns in the area and the location of the zeppelin attacks around Dover. You never know, combining it all with the location of this exploded fuze a theory might just be put together...

I attach a couple more photos.

 

[smle2009]

Hi Phil,
I am fairly sure this fuze had a long service life and was used during both world wars and in a variation of shells.
But I honestly could not say what shells, as fuzes are not my subject,there are a lot more knowledgeable members who will no doubt fill in the gaps for you on here.
The number, Mark,manufacturer and date should be marked on the 'base' of the fuze,so perhaps a little more cleaning would reveal?

Tony

 

[smle2009]

Sorry about the horrid photo but the light in here is awful! these are the sort of markings you might expect to find on the base of your fuze

Tony

 

[Andysarmoury]

It Looks like a No 80MkIV with the aluminium centre used on early 13pdr and the 18pdr shrapnel the 13pdr was used as a AA round so might be why its where you found it i hope this helps.
Andy

 

[Fossil Phil]

Thanks Tony and Andy. Unfortunately the base plate isn't there any more and the screw thread has been broken, presumably when the shell exploded. My turn to apologise for a poor picture, but you get the idea from the photo below.

Interesting that the shell was filled with aluminium as I had wonder what the lower-grade metal inside the fuze was. So with this type of fuze construction we are probably looking at WW1 date?

I've checked my armament lists for 1916 and 1917 and unfortunately I can't find any mention of either a 13pdr or 18pdr at the local fixed defences. There were a few 12 pdrs mounted on the harbour breakwaters and two 6" guns at Langdon battery which is on the opposite side of the valley to where I found the fuze. Back in Oct 14 a 12pdr had been installed at Langdon and the following July had fired at a zeppelin directly over the western docks which is almost exactly in line of sight of where the fuze was discovered. I had wondered if it could have been an artefact of that action, but if the fuze doesn't fit... The lists I have are only snapshots and don't include lorry based AA guns, so perhaps we'll never know.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[butterfly]

There was mention of a 3" anti aircraft gun position in the first post.

Was the type 80 fuze used with the 3" round??

(sorry not my area I'm afraid, but very interesting thread!!)

regards Kev

 

[Fossil Phil]

I think the 3" reference may have been my mistake Kev - apologies. I've just double-checked, according to J.B. Firth's Dover and the Great War (1919), there was only the single 12pdr at Langdon, but this was supplimented by two 6pdr Hotchkiss QF guns on the opposite side of the valley at the Western Heights (probably near or in the old Napoleonic Drop Redoubt fort. This was close to the spot I found the fuze). These would have been manned by the volunteers of the 3rd Kent Royal Garrison Artillery.

On the Armaments listings held at the National Archives, by 1916 it seems that the two Hotchkiss guns had been abandoned and the defensive screen spread out further. By then there were two 6" guns at the Langdon, five 12pdrs and four more 6" guns on the breakwaters and piers. Additionally there were two huge 9.2" guns at Langdon and two more at the Citadel on the Western Heights.

How exactly comprehensive these old lists are I'm afraid I really couldn't say. I'm rather surprised Dover Castle doesn't seem to feature as I can't believe there were no AA guns there.

Thanks again.

 

[Darkman]

No. 44/80 Mk IV

Whilst the No. 80 Mk IV and Mk V fuzes both had an aluminium body and cap, these were for use with shrapnel. I can't imagine why a shrapnel fuze would be found in this location. More likely it is a No. 44/80 adapted for use as an anti-aircraft shell fuze on the QF 3 inch 20 cwt AA gun by the addition of a gaine. Makes more sense in this location.

Cheers,

Graeme

 

[smle2009]

That is a good point Graeme,but wasn't the 44/80 an all brass affair?

Cheers
Tony

 

[Darkman]

Hi Tony,

I believe the No. 44/80 was based on a Mk IV with aluminium body and cap.

Cheers,

Graeme