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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kahu1 View Post
    Thanks Dave,
    So were the M83's an American reverse engineered SD2 or is there some other common factor in their development?

    Bob
    Bob i've got copies of design drawings for the M83 from 1944. As the SD2 was developed earlier it would appear that the M83 was a copy of the SD2 (I'm sure Butterfly can add to this regarding exactly when the SD2 was introduced). It appears that the wing sets on the earliest M83 examples were direct copies of the SD2, when they are placed next to each other they are just about identical apart from very minor differences (the way the hinge bars are crimped, the way the wing cradle is slightly rounded on the M83), but very soon after the one piece end paddles came in (as can be seen on the 3 examples I've shown). Its interesting that the SD2 was only in service for 4 or 5 years (obviously because the war ended) but the M83 was used for 20 plus years, and yet the M83's seem to be so hard to find. Regarding the bodies, the M83 is smaller with a larger hole for the fuze than the SD2. The arming wires are also completely different with the M83 screwing into the arming rod on the fuze and the SD2 being held in place with 2 tiny screws, the wire itself and top is different too. Regarding the fuzes, although different diameters, broadly speaking the German 41 fuze corresponds to the American T47 and M129 fuze, the German 67 fuze corresponds to the American T48 and M130 fuze, and the German 70b types of fuze correspond to the American T49 and M131 types of fuze (most of which are show above). There was no bayonet fitting equivalent of the SD2 fuzes, all the M83 fuzes are screw fitting. All the M83 fuze gain pots that I have seen are alloy and all the SD2 ones bakelite although I believe early M83 fuzes may have used bakelite ones in limited numbers (has anyone got examples?)
    Hope I've not bored you with all this info.......
    Dave.

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  3. #12
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    Thanks Dave,

    All good info!

    So would the m83/sd2's have had the same lethality and reputation in use? And do you know where were the M83's were used in their 20+ year service ,or did they just become an inventory item?.

    cheers
    Bob

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kahu1 View Post
    Thanks Dave,

    All good info!

    So would the m83/sd2's have had the same lethality and reputation in use? And do you know where were the M83's were used in their 20+ year service ,or did they just become an inventory item?.

    cheers
    Bob
    Bob I don't know about lethality. They were used in Korea and Vietnam. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has any information on how many were dropped in the various conflicts.
    Dave.

  5. #14
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    Bob - thanks for showing your relic M83 wings - great to see you have a bit of history with these!!

    Dave has done an excellent write up above, so rather than repeat what he has said I will try to add to it a little.

    The SD2's were first used in 1940, the development goes back to the Kettenbombe which was tested at Rechlin during 1937. The kettenbombe resembled four SD2 bomb bodies held within a metal frame. The frame was designed to fall apart upon release and the four bomb units to fall away, trouble with the precision fuze units caused a lot of malfunctions and I believe that this was abandoned, however development of the design led onto the SD2. I have yet to see any documents which would fill in the gap between the failure of the kettenbombe and the fully developed SD2 - however these documents may not have survived the war - I live in hope.
    The SD2's were used much more than people perhaps realised, so far I have tracked their use to the UK, Holland, North Africa, Italy, Latvia, Russia, Greece, Malta and stores in Finland. There may be other areas too - any information on exact locations are more than welcome.
    The M83's were a direct development from the SD2's, in fact in the early versions the wing units are almost identical, the only give away is that the M83's were always had ink-stamped markings, where as the SD2's were always stamped into the metal on one or sometimes both vanes. Dave mentioned that the M83 fuzes were all of the screw thread type - the main difference being that the fuzes on the M83's used a left hand thread as opposed to the early SD2A's which used the conventional right hand thread. The earliest date I have seen on documents relating to the M83 has been late 1943. Certainly stocks were held by the Americans by late 1944, but it appears they were never used. The reason for this may be two-fold; first of all the SD2's were extremely effective when used over populated areas. Grimsby was the prime example, a blanket silence as to the effectiveness of the raid may have prevented further simialar use of the weapon, though exact reasons are still a mystery. If the Allies had chosen to use the M83 in such a style then retaliation raids may have been used against them at a time when troops were being assembled in huge numbers. ---- the second factor is that the SD2/M83's were designed to be used behind enemy lines, its not really a weapon that you want to use in an area you are advancing into, if you do then effect would be to hold up the advance and basically set yourself minefields into which you send your troops. During 1944 advances were being made on all fronts and this may have prevented their use. However, wether they were used in 'limited numbers' remains to be seen, I certainly have seen no documented evidence so far. The fact that stocks of M83's were held, may well explain why your wing set was found in a German forest, I have heard of others being recovered in France too.
    The first documented use I have seen relating to the M83's is in the Korean war where they were used to 'mine' busy road junctions to prevent traffic flow, used as a nuisance weapon. They were also used in the Vietnam war. Further information of their use in both these campaigns would be most welcome!!

    regards Kev

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  7. #15
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    Just a couple of enamels signs, these are the only 2 versions of the enamel sign I am aware of. Does anyone have any others to show?

    Dave.

    SD 2 sign.jpg

  8. #16
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    Incredible showings gents.
    Ordasmic!

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  10. #17
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    butterfly bombs

    nice to see other peoples butterfly bombs, here are my sd2's

    001.jpg002.jpg003.jpg

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  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gau 8 View Post
    nice to see other peoples butterfly bombs, here are my sd2's

    001.jpg002.jpg003.jpg
    Very nice collection you have there Gau 8 - always great to see other examples of these - appreciate your post thanks for showing!!
    regards Kev

  13. #19
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    I mentioned briefly in a previous post the history of the SD2 being developed from the Kettenbombe of 1936/1937 vintage. I thought that some members may be interested to see a comparison of the SD2 body when compared to that of the kettenbombe. From this photo it is quite clear just how close the resemblence is!!

    (Kettenbombe top photo ; 4x SD2A bodies bottom photo)

    regards Kev

    bb (6).jpg

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  15. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterfly View Post
    I mentioned briefly in a previous post the history of the SD2 being developed from the Kettenbombe of 1936/1937 vintage. I thought that some members may be interested to see a comparison of the SD2 body when compared to that of the kettenbombe. From this photo it is quite clear just how close the resemblence is!!

    (Kettenbombe top photo ; 4x SD2A bodies bottom photo)

    regards Kev

    bb (6).jpg
    Mmmmmmm wouldn't it be nice if one of those popped out of the woodwork?
    Dave.

 

 
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