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Definition of "Small Arms Ammunition"

raymeketa said:
....small arms ammunition is anything that is not normally loaded with an explosive charge and a fuze (20mm and bigger).[/QUOTEB

I recently happened to be working with the Department Of Defense Explosives Safety Board (DDESB) Technical Paper 16 which includes the "Fragmentation Data Base" that munitions response (UXO) Technicians use here in the States to determine frag distances. The latest version, which came out in March 2012 has listed the Mk211 Series of Caliber .50, indicating that it is an "explosive" round. This is the first time the DoD has included "below 20mm" as potentially having an explosive projectile for the purposes of munitions response/range remediation.
Taber
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There is also a version of the 14.5mm Soviet round which has an explosive fill. I always apply the definition of SAA not having explosive fill, and being of 12.7mm or less. Any rounds of 12.7 or 14.5 which have explosive fill I classify as UXO and treat accordingly.
 
Just my 2 pence worth but would it not depend under what UN number the manufacture labels it? For example a military Schermuly is manufactured under one UN number (i forget which one) and is ilegal to own in the UK live as it falls under section 5 whereas exactly the same flare manufactured by the same people in the same factory for civy world under a different UN number is perfectly legal to own and use.
 
Charlie said:
Just my 2 pence worth but would it not depend under what UN number the manufacture labels it? For example a military Schermuly is manufactured under one UN number (i forget which one) and is ilegal to own in the UK live as it falls under section 5 whereas exactly the same flare manufactured by the same people in the same factory for civy world under a different UN number is perfectly legal to own and use.
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There is a point in that Charlie.
The UN system classifies all explosives and there are some anomalies with the way that SAA is dealt with. For example both a 7.62mm ball round and a 38mm baton round are both allocated UN0012. However, the generic name for UN0012 is in 2 parts "Cartridges small arms" or "Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile" and the 7.62mm round would take the former whilst the 38mm round would take the latter.

The same applies to other UN numbers that have two part generic names. UN0339 is another example where there are listings for certain types of 5.56mm ball rounds and also 20mm AP rounds. Using the UN defintion of SAA as discussed earlier in this thread every item under 19.1mm would take the description "Cartridges Small Arms" whilst those 19.1mm or greater would be "Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile".
 
For Army EOD purposes I was always taught 40mm and below (not including grenades) was considered small arms, which made sense from the point of standard EOD procedures of the time.
 
To summarise the responses so far -

UK military - below 20mm
SAAMI - not exceeding 1 inch
BATFE - no calibre specified but excludes military bursting/spotting/pyro filled rounds
UN - not exceeding 19.1mm

Personal definitions - "hand portable weapons", "under 12.7mm and no explosive projectile", "40mm and below".

Thank you for the responses.
 
exat808 said:
Current British Military documents define SAA as "all types of ammunition below 20mm used with small arms".
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I can confirm that, having been browsing through the Ammo Hall at Shrivenham this week. I noticed a info poster defining SAA as exactly that. So that's what is officially taught at the UK Defence Academy. That doesn't amount to Holy Writ or a legal definition of course - practice in other countries may vary, and definitions can certainly alter over time.

The same applies to the distinction between "cannon" and "machine guns", as I discussed in Rapid Fire:

"The current usage of these terms has only become generally accepted since the Second World War. Before then, the term "machine gun" was used to describe a relatively small-calibre weapon normally firing solid projectiles while larger weapons were called "automatic guns". The name "cannon" was in English usage an obsolete term for artillery, which by that time were known as guns or howitzers depending on their function. The situation changed in British practice with the selection for the RAF of the French Hispano moteur-canon in the late 1930s. Anglicised as "cannon", the name became adopted for the Hispano and subsequently for all other automatic shell-firing guns of 20mm or more calibre.

Different nations had different practices; in Germany, automatic weapons of up to and including 20mm were known as machine guns (Maschinengewehr) with larger calibres being known as cannon (Maschinenkanonen), leading to the MG and MK prefixes. In addition, designations based on function were used for particular applications, whether or not the weapons were automatic. A gun intended for the anti-aircraft role was called Fliegerabwehrkanone (sometimes given as Flugzeugabwehrkanone or Flugabwehrkanone), for the anti-tank role Panzerabwehrkanone and for mounting in armoured fighting vehicles Kampfwagenkanone; FlaK, PaK and KwK for short. The BK (Bordkanone) designation was used for very large calibre (37+mm) airborne cannon intended for ground attack.

Nomenclature also varied between services. In Sweden, the Air Force called their m/39 12.7mm and 13.2mm guns automatkanon, presumably because they were larger than usual for aircraft guns at the time, while their Navy called the m/32 25mm a kulspruta, (which translates as machine gun), presumably because this was a small weapon by naval standards.

Since the war the definition of a cannon as any fast-firing automatic weapon of 20mm or more has become generally accepted, at least in NATO."

I should now amend that a bit: US practice is to use the term "cannon" for the barrel of any large ordnance, including tank guns, artillery and mortars.
 
The current U.S. manual TM 43-0001-27 Small Arms Ammunition includes everything from 30mm and smaller.
 
Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 different answers. I wonder why this discussion is going 3 pages already.
 
EOD said:
Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 different answers. I wonder why this discussion is going 3 pages already.
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And that was why I started the thread.
A global definition is unlikely to happen is it?
 
Guess not. Look at much more less disputable issues in this world and people can not agree on one single thing...

My subjective view on small arms ammo is: Ammo for weapons which can be carried and used by only one person.
 
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EOD

Wouldn't that definition eliminate the Cal .50 which is fired in weapons weighing more than 70 pounds and requiring a two-man crew?

Ray
 
Ray, no, there are plenty of sniper rifles for that caliber (and even civilian "weirdo" pistols or revolvers).
But per my view it would also include 60mm mortars and plenty of other stuff.
As said all is very subjective. As per my view a small arm is anythig one person can carry and use so I do not understand the caliber discussion which actually does not apply to the question at all.
Also we may have to keep in mind that additionally there is always a civilian and a military definition.
 
reccetrooper said:
This appears to be a definition used in UK legislation.

The Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations 2005 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1082/pdfs/uksi_20051082_en.pdf

Under Interpretation it states;

“small arms ammunition” means the explosive articles allocated in accordance with the United Nations Recommendations the U.N. nos. 0012, 0014 or 0055 which are intended exclusively for use in small arms;
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I agree that this is a useful definition, there are however some cautionary points to note with this -
1. The definition is exclusively written for the enforceent of the Manufacture and Storage regulations in GB. It is not transferrable across to other legislation.
2. There is no accompanying definition of "small arms" in the regulations which still leaves us guessing regarding maximum calibre etc.
3. The 3 UN numbers quoted in the definition are not the only UN numbers under which SAA is classified. There are for example many rounds of SAA listed under 0328 and 0339.

I many respects we have more questions than answers arising from this.
As a matter of fact the paper that I was researching which generated this thread uses MSER 2005 as its start point.
 
According to the US Military, 40MM is considered "Ammunition, Small Arms" or at least that is how they mark the ammo boxes. GROG
 
That depends on the 40mm rounds:

I can see that 40mm LV UBGL grenade rounds would definitely be categorised as small arms ammo.

40mm HV grenade rounds for AGLs might well be.

40mm Bofors would not...
 
Hi all, just found this, been away for a while. The definition of SAA as taught to me in 1979 was that, for UK Land Service at least, it was 20 mm and under, as Tony E says. As far as I remember Anti Riot ammo was considered to be Special Purpose ammo and was not classified as SAA. As others have said, nothing stays the same and distinctions can become blurred. Personally I was never comfortable that 20 mm HE was classified as SAA. The 14.5 mm artillery trainer was different again but then years later the LAW 80 came with five 9 mm spotting rounds, similar to the 14.5 mm artillery trainer and .50 inch spotting round for the 120 mm BAT.
 
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