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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellifortis View Post
    Hallo Ivan,
    when you speak of Mercury, do you mean the explosive salt Mercury Fulminate or the pure liquid metal Mercury ? The terminology on this subject is very important. A "Fougasse" is an old (probably used since the 16th century) earth/stone mortar. The word "Mine" originates from the subterranean mines of old and miners were the men that dug the shafts and tunnels. So these experts were the ones to be first used to construct explosive "Mines", tunnels dug under a fort and a powder chamber filled with black powder, to blow up a fort. Ignition for both was the same, a lead-fire tube. So MINE = underground explosive charge and "Fougasse"= mortar in modern usage. These underground dug "Mines" were probably in use since the 12th century. What I'm still searching for, is the first employment of a victim actuated land mine which reacts on a man stepping on to it. I thought, up till last year, that the "Rain's Fuze" (US civil war) was the first, but, the above mentioned literature sources tell of russian employment already around 1840. If you believe, that Professor Jacobi was not the inventor of the H2SO4-Chlorate/Shugar igniter, who was the inventor of its use in mines ? This must have occured between 1789 (B.Pelletier's realization of the reaction) and 1840 (published use in mines in russia). You mention electric mines by Jacobi. Do you have any drawings of those ?
    Regards,
    Bellifortis.
    When I speak Mercury I mean only liquid metal Mercury, not any explosive with Mercury or some another combination with Mercury. Because Mercury Fulminate is Mercury Fulminate
    Yes-yes, I agree with your notes about "fougases" and "mines". Sorry, if you were confused, but whet I wote "fougase" I mean only like land-mine. Sea or tiver is another mine and if what - I`ll write what exactly I mean, because I know about thist synonyms. And if it stone fougase I`ll write what exactly it is.
    I think Rain`s fuse wasn`t first, because Jacobi or Nobel was first. It was or Jacobi or Nobel. Sorry, but I`m not very big specialist in sea mine and can`t tell you exactly about difference between Nobel and Jacobi sea pyro mines. I`ll check it!
    I heared a lot of times, that Jacobi found this combination - H2SO4+Chlorate/Shugar igniter, but really could be Nobel made it first. Could be and this - Jacobi was Russian engineer, but Nobel not and in country was politic "own inventors". I`ll try to check it!

    ivan.

  2. #32
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    Jacobi pyro mine.
    1 - safety bolt; 2 - metal tube; 3 - capsule with H2SO4; 4 - wadding with Chlorate and Shugar; 5 - powder; 6 - body; 7 - dee; 8 - powder charge; 9 - plumbum tube; 10 - zinc cylinder; 11-pin, 12-safety cap, 13 - float
    mc_min_1905.jpg

    In document about developing mines, whic dated 24/07/1847 talks next (about Jacobi experiments with sea mines): "pyrophoric mines,presented in 1844..." But in the same moment in book about developing sea mines in Russian Fleet I found this footnote:
    "Blowing up of Nobel mines produces of H2SO4+Chlorate and Shugar. Chlorate and Shugar was in glass tube, which destroied when vessel contacted with mine. This device improved by Jacobi and first Nobel variant and didn`t remain anything from first Nobel idea"!!!!
    And in another book I found those nice pictures - http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBo...05/chap03.html with Nobel mines. As you see, on the third picture Nobel mine, but looks like Jacobi mine
    Unfortunatly I think it was politic of "own inventors"
    Last edited by Ivashkin; 11th September 2013 at 09:01 PM.

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    Bellifortis (11th September 2013)

  4. #33
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    Thank you very much Ivan for your most informed answers meanwhile. I have another question : How was the Mercury used ?
    Regards,
    bellifortis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivashkin View Post
    When I speak Mercury I mean only liquid metal Mercury, not any explosive with Mercury or some another combination with Mercury. Because Mercury Fulminate is Mercury Fulminate
    Yes-yes, I agree with your notes about "fougases" and "mines". Sorry, if you were confused, but whet I wote "fougase" I mean only like land-mine. Sea or tiver is another mine and if what - I`ll write what exactly I mean, because I know about thist synonyms. And if it stone fougase I`ll write what exactly it is.
    I think Rain`s fuse wasn`t first, because Jacobi or Nobel was first. It was or Jacobi or Nobel. Sorry, but I`m not very big specialist in sea mine and can`t tell you exactly about difference between Nobel and Jacobi sea pyro mines. I`ll check it!
    I heared a lot of times, that Jacobi found this combination - H2SO4+Chlorate/Shugar igniter, but really could be Nobel made it first. Could be and this - Jacobi was Russian engineer, but Nobel not and in country was politic "own inventors". I`ll try to check it!

    ivan.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellifortis View Post
    Thank you very much Ivan for your most informed answers meanwhile. I have another question : How was the Mercury used ?
    Regards,
    bellifortis.
    Mercury used like electrical contactor between two contacts. Were a lot of different combinations. Sometimes Mercury was in glass tube, which crashed by vessel when it bited mine. Sometimes tubes chashed tube metall balls. Mercury was very popular and used in Russian contactor for land-mine during WWI.

    Ivan.

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    Bellifortis (12th September 2013)

  7. #35
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    Attached are 2 fotos, one from Barnes (1869) with nice drawings of the "Chemical Primer" and Rains "Sensitive Primer" (even by modern standards for AP mine fuzes, this was very sensitive, needing only 7 pounds of pressure for ignition). Barnes states, that the US chemical primer was a direct adoption of the russian Jacobi design. The other foto is from Charles H.Jones very nice book, the Best I have seen on civil war fuzes. Here it is stated that the chemical primer was the one originally used, before the Rains primer. Now we have arrived at a date of around 1840 for the H2SO4/KCLO3-Shugar ignition system for sea-and land-mines. Probably I.Nobels idea. Does anybody here ever read about an employment of this system before 1840 ?
    Bellifortis.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bellifortis; 13th September 2013 at 06:22 PM.

  8. #36
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    Some time ago I had the rare opportunity to examine original 19th century black powder from one of the foremost european powder mills, that was established in the middle of the 18th century. I think that nobody here has ever had the chance to see something like this, so I want to share the pictures with you. The attached fotos show navy- shell-bursting-charge-powder-grains (the smaller ones) and sea-mine-powder (the 3 large grains) produced around 1900. The scale is metric. I have been studying and using black powder for about 30 years and thought that I knew all its intricacies. But, I first was baffled by the large sized powder-grains for the sea-mines. Normally I thought, that the finer the grains, the faster the powder burns (like powder for muzzle loading rifles). For a sea-mine to work, the powder had to be extremely fast burning. It took me some time to understand, why such extremely large grains were used. The 19th century seamine foto is not mine, I copied it from a sales-offer from fleabay some years ago. This is the mine the powder was used in and compares with those of Sevastopol and the US-civil war aera.
    enjoy,
    Bellifortis.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    beihan62 (30th August 2015), Ivashkin (30th August 2015), Sir Roger (6th September 2015)

  10. #37
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    Battery Wagner Map

    I apologize for addressing something that may be a little late to this thread. Attached is the map for Battery/Fort Wagner, with the location of each individual landmine/torpedo marked. This is from the atlas to the official history.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Sir Roger (9th October 2016)

  12. #38
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    Hi,
    while searching for some old german books on Gallica/BNF , I found the following http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt...880?rk=64378;0 very nice french book "Les Torpilles", which covers the technology of Mines and Torpedos in the second half of the 19th century. All the drawings of "Barnes"book are contained, but in a much better quality and resolution plus some more from german, austrian, italian and other sources. The quality of the scans at BNF are much better than Google scans, with a much higher resolution. Barnes book is meanwhile online at Archive.org , but as I said, the drawings in the french book are much, much better and larger, more detailed. I do not know if the author H.De Sarrepont used Barnes book as a source or if both of them used some other published source. I do not speak French, but it is really worth to look at this book, even if you don't speak the language. There is so much information you can glean from it and its free to download.
    Enjoy,
    Bellifortis.
    Last edited by Bellifortis; 13th June 2018 at 04:45 PM.

 

 
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