strange round thing

[Natter]

From your postings it would appear you are very knowledgeable about underwater weapons etc......

Yes, I think I have a fairly good knowledge of underwater ordnance (especially in regards to the equipment used in RNoN) after nearly 30 years service as a weapons engineering officer ++ (among my main areas of expertice is torpedoes and mines, but I have also a good insight into all aspects of mine warfare, including minesweeping and -hunting equipment, sonars etc).

I also look forward to finding out exactly what this item is, and possibly see some better photos.

There is a general prohibition against all kinds of photography at norwegian military establishments. I suspect that the photo posted in this topic might have been taken illegally by a conscript. Wether there will be more photos available is hard to tell, but if I get an ID, photos of this type of equipment might be available from other sources.

however I do have to say your above post does appear a little contradictory if I might say so.... 'we dont display any foreign material on our bases', followed by , 'there is a slight possiblity that it's of german origin'????? To be fair on other members comments, this first statement would surely rule out this possibility would it not?

I realize that I (unintentionally) might come off a little "short" - it's probaly due to a combination of "occupational hazard" (ie the way I'm used to communicate in my line of work), and especially my shortcomings in regards to the english language (although I feel quite capable in terms of spelling and grammar, it's hard to express the desired "message" properly).


I'll try to clearify a little more in regards to previous posts:

In general, all military equipment that is phased out of service wil be evaluated by the armed forces museumservice (in case of naval equipment, by the naval museum in Horten). If it's determined being of historical/museal value, a number of items will be transferred to the museum before the remaining equipment are sold or destructed. The museums have limited space for exibitions, so a lot of the materiel will be kept in different storagefacilities. Also, some equipment will be on temporary or permanent loan to different institutions: For example, the submarine training-centre at Haakonsvern Naval base in Bergen, has a lot of historical equipment on display relating to the evolution and history of norwegian submarine service (including items like a Biber and two Marder midget subs that was used in high numbers by the german Kriegsmarine K-verbnde in Norway during the final phases of WW2). Also, civilian institutions, museums etc can get equpiment on loan from the military museums (like the private war-museum in Narvik which have a couple of torpedoes and mines etc. on loan from the naval museum in Horten).

As a general rule, the equipment being on loan and display at different military bases has some sort of significance or relevance to the units/operations on the base. The base in question at Madla in Stavanger (HMNoS Harald Haarfagre) is a combined navy/air force base for basic training (ie taking the civilian conscripts from the street through "boot camp", before shipping them off to other bases for more specific training and further service in the navy or the air force). In other words: There are really no special branches or service related to this base. Any equipment on display here, will be more "general" navy/air force related - like the mine (probably a UK Mk XVII or a US Mk 6) you can see on the aerial photo I posted above - to the right of the object in question.


When I open up for a possible "german connection", it's related to NORDEP:

NORDEP ("Norwegian Depot Administration") was a NATO-related agreement between West-Germany (BRD) and Norway regarding logistical support for the german navy at forward bases along the norwegian coast. It was initiated in 1962, and ended in 1994.

These bases were established for exclusive use by the german navy in wartime, but was manned and run entirely by the norwegian naval logistical command (I don't know all details, but there were similar agreements with other nations - I think it was called "Bundeswehr Logistisches Aussenstelle").

The NORDEP-system included:
* Fuel-depots in Porsgrunn, Arendal, Mandal, Stavanger and Bergen
* Military reservehospitals in Halden, Stavanger and Kristiansand
* Ammunition- and equipmentdepots at my and Rennesy (outside Stavanger)
* Ammunition- and equipmentdepot at Bolrne (in the Oslofiord, outside Tnsberg)

There is a lot more to these agreemenst of course, but a possible connection to "Harald Haarfagre" at Madla is the fact that the establishment of this base was paid for by West-Germany, since this location was meant to host one of the military reservehosiptals mentioned above.

When the NORDEP-system was phased out in 1994-97, most of the bases that Norway didn't see further use for were laid down, for example my and Rennesy outside Stavanger. It's possible thay had some equipment on display there that were moved to the Madla-base, or it's also possible that Bundeswehr donated some material to RNoN as a gift/commeorative regarding the 34 year NORDEP-cooperation between Norway and Germany, and that this equipment was placed at Madla since it's the only remaining military base in Stavanger.

I don't have a complete list of what equipment Germany stored at the depots in Norway, but it included several types of artillery-munition, mines and torpeoes for both german naval vessels (MTB's and submarines) and airplanes (MPA's). Regarding mines, I know it included US types Mk 25 and Mk 36, as well as german type DM11 (with DM21 and 39). I have also seen US Mk 37 torpedoes and Exocet missiles being mentioned. Eqipment for minelaying and -sweeping was also stored at the depots.

I have attached a photo from a NORDEP-storage facility showing DM11 anchor-mines on top, and probably Mk25 bottom-mines below.


I hope this explanation makes some sense...

 

[butterfly]

Thankyou for your reply Natter, your explanation certainly does makes lots of sense.
I think perhaps if anyone will find out what this item is, then you will be that person.

regards Kev

 

[Natter]

The attached aerial photo shows the object (red circle), but it's hard to tell exactly what it is. Despite my previous post, it might look like a torpedo at first glance, but the "aftsection" don't add up (from the aerial photo alone, I would have guessed submarine-pericope - we have a few of those on display, but the end doesn't look anything like the "round object" in the initial photo.
It's been a while since my last visit to this base, but I will make some inqueries among my collegues when I'm back at work. It should not be difficult to get an answer.

Finally a collegue and member on the norwegian coastal-artillery forum came up with some photos of this object, and it is in fact a torpedo..! (just to show how you can get fooled by shadows, angles etc :-| ).

I am waiting for better photos and measurements, but so far this appear most likely to be a UK Mk VIII with the tail from another torpedo (could be german) and an unknown type of exersice-head... It's very strange - maybe someone's "mechanical project", but I hope more info will help with the final id (I will for sure plan a stop here to examine it personally as soon as I get a chance).

 

[Natter]

The head has now been identified as an exercisehead for a Whitehead-torpedo (Mod VIII or other close "relatives"). The torpedo itself is also most likely a Whitehead-torpedo or probably a norwegian pre-WW2 model (Horten).
Some details does not match the Mod VIII, but it might be a later model. Based on the tip from JEF on the norwegian coastal-artillery forum, I dug up my old photos from the museum at Oscarsborg fortress, showing the same type of head with a Mod VIII torpedo:

 

[Natter]

It's hard to tell, but the emblem on the left might have a german flag? That could indicate it's a german weaponsystem, perhaps a type of mine or similar previously stored at the german NORDEP-facilites (for instance at Rennesy outside Stavanger)?

It turns out that this "emblem" probably was just a random sticker attached to the head at the time of that initial photography (it's long gone). Ie: All my ellaborate explanation of the possible NORDEP-relations was completely way off

 

[Natter]

The head has now been identified as an exercisehead for a Whitehead-torpedo (Mod VIII or other close "relatives"). The torpedo itself is also most likely a Whitehead-torpedo or probably a norwegian pre-WW2 model (Horten).

I was visiting this base today for a couple of meetings, and was able to examine the torpedo up close.
It's for sure a norwegian pre-WW2 torpedo with a Model VIII exercisehead. Wether the torpedo itself is a Model VIII is hard to tell, as most of the Horten-torpedoes of this era is very similar exterior-wise. The lenght varies though, but I had no way to measure it.
Regardless which model, it's a very rare torpedo (for instance, only about 150 Mod VIII were ever made, and there's probably no complete ones besides this one). Too bad it's rusting away (it's also mounted upside down..).