20mm X-Rays

[imaokie2000]

Ok, I dug out everything I have made in Finland. All Complete rounds are live except for the HE projectiles and Training Rounds. I was able to pull the projectiles on #4 & 5 Bottom Row. It of course caused them to be loose, so I didn't pull anymore. I couldn't weigh the projectiles. My scale does not go high enough.

Top L to R
1.) 20x138B, Live Primer, HS-20B 40 T
2.) 20x138B, Live Primer, HS-20B 40 T
3.) 20x138B, Live Primer, HS-20B 40 T
4.) 20x138B, Live Primer, HS-20B 40 T
5.) 37mm Training Projectile, Missing Driving Band. I need a Case for this.
6.) AP Projectile, 69.36mm, Total Length
7.) AP Projectile, 69.42mm, Total Length
8.) AP Projectile, 69.33mm, Total Length, 62.8mm Bottom, Of Driving Band, 9.9mm Below Driving Band. Typ. of all 3

Bottom L to R
1.) 20x138B HEI-T???. HS-20/40 T E1 41, Projectile-65mm from case mouth
2.) 20x138B HEI-T???. HS-20/40 T E1 41, Projectile-65mm from case mouth
3.) 20x138B AP-T. HS-20B T 40, Projectile-64.43mm from case mouth
4.) 20x138B AP-T. HS-20/40 E5 T 41, Projectile-76.95mm. I was able to pull this
5.) 20x138B AP-T. HS-20/40 T 41, Projectile-76.72mm. I was able to pull this
6.) 20x138B AP-T. HS-20B T 40, Projectile-64.5mm from case mouth
7.) 20x138B Training Round. HS-20/40 T 41, Projectile-65.22mm from case mouth
8.) 20x138B Training Round. HS-20L 40, Projectile-65.42mm from case mouth
9.) 20x138B Training Round. HS-BLANK, Projectile-65.6mm from case mouth
10.) 20X113mm AP-T, HS-20L T 40, Projectile-64.54mm from case mouth
11.) 20X113mm AP, HS-20L T 40, Projectile-64.4mm from case mouth
12.) 20X113mm AP, HS-19 "T" (in a circled triangle) 39 TIKKAKOSKI, Projectile-60.27mm from case mouth
13.) 20X113mm AP, HS-19 "T" (in a circled triangle) 39 TIKKAKOSKI, Projectile-60.16mm from case mouth

 

[HAZORD]

Imaokie200,

FYI, that Hungarian round is very common in the U.S. and they are almost always still live. Everyone thinks they are just AP rounds. I've only ever seen one that has been emptied and it is in my collection, but it was inert when I got it.

 

[imaokie2000]

Yes and there's two more that are usually live when I find them.

 

[Tmine35]

Possibly the Hungarian rounds are from Finland as well. We had a few guns with Hungarian ammo in WWII. At the end of 50's the remaining guns and all ammo was sold to Interarmco.

Amazing collection of Finnish 20mm cartridges :tinysmile_shy_t: . I assume the loose projectiles are all of the short type?

 

[jiipee76]

Fantastic set of finnish rounds!

Can you show us closeup of projectiles of these two rounded in pic:

 

[jiipee76]

Bottom L to R
1.) 20x138B HEI-T???. HS-20/40 T E1 41, Projectile-65mm from case mouth -> This one is 116g HE-T
2.) 20x138B HEI-T???. HS-20/40 T E1 41, Projectile-65mm from case mouth -> This one is 122g I-T
3.) 20x138B AP-T. HS-20B T 40, Projectile-64.43mm from case mouth -> This one is solid AP(Full blue)
4.) 20x138B AP-T. HS-20/40 E5 T 41, Projectile-76.95mm. I was able to pull this
5.) 20x138B AP-T. HS-20/40 T 41, Projectile-76.72mm. I was able to pull this
6.) 20x138B AP-T. HS-20B T 40, Projectile-64.5mm from case mouth -> This one is solid AP(Full blue)
7.) 20x138B Training Round. HS-20/40 T 41, Projectile-65.22mm from case mouth
8.) 20x138B Training Round. HS-20L 40, Projectile-65.42mm from case mouth
9.) 20x138B Training Round. HS-BLANK, Projectile-65.6mm from case mouth
10.) 20X113mm AP-T, HS-20L T 40, Projectile-64.54mm from case mouth
11.) 20X113mm AP, HS-20L T 40, Projectile-64.4mm from case mouth
12.) 20X113mm AP, HS-19 "T" (in a circled triangle) 39 TIKKAKOSKI, Projectile-60.27mm from case mouth
13.) 20X113mm AP, HS-19 "T" (in a circled triangle) 39 TIKKAKOSKI, Projectile-60.16mm from case mouth
View attachment 84003

Here few detail updates.

 

[samsonn25]

I have some Lahti ammo marked 20L and T at 3 o clock position and year 40 at 6 o'clock. Was this ammo used on the anti-tank rifle? or another gun? I also have the magazine for it, it holds 10 rounds.

http://i.imgur.com/Ghu6oww.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/imlNJwc.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/GtjdtUS.jpg?1

 

[bdgreen]

Samsonn,

The cartridges you show are the 20 x 113mm Lahti, note this is the shorter Lahti cartridge the cartridge cases do not have a "belt' near the base of the cartridge (see pictures shown by others in earlier posts above).

Have a look here: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/47659-20-X-113-Lathi?

Are you sure the 10 round magazine is not for the 20 x 138mmB (the "B" designates the cartridge case as belted) Finland Lahti L-39 anti-tank gun? Many of these were imported into the U.S. back in the 1950's and 1960's along with original ammunition.

Brian

 

[samsonn25]

After doing some measuring it looks like the Mag I have is for the Lahti anti-tank L39 gun which would use the 20x138b mm.

So these 20 x 113 rounds were for the very limited Navy gun? I suppose one could also chamber these in other guns also of similar caliber or use as single shot project rifles.

http://i.imgur.com/UQZUtPr.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/7z957yo.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/pr7WgDl.jpg?1

 

[Tony Williams]

I have a Finnish book on 20mm guns and ammunition used by that country (recommended - there are summary paragraphs in English), as well as a French brochure from Tampella on the Lahti Model 34.

It seems that the L34 which saw official adoption (10 mountings, on small patrol boats) used the rimless Lahti ammo, but then Lahti sold the rights to Tampella who modified the gun and ammo (including adding the belt) but did not attract any sales. IIRC a couple of the Tampella guns may have been pressed into service in the war.

 

[bdgreen]

Samsonn,


When Finland sold off the Lahti L-39 anti-tank guns, in 20 x 138mmB, a few (possibly 5 of the 10 produced) of the Finnish 20 x 113mm L-34 automatic cannons were also surplused along with the ammunition for each gun type. Most of the surplus ammunition was marketed in the U.S. That is why the Lahti 20 x 113mm cartridge is not overly common in Europe.

 

[samsonn25]

Thanks for the quick response Tony and BD

After some investigation I have found out that when they were originally designing the Lahti anti-tank gun in the suummer 1939 the 2 early prototypes were in Lahti's own proprietary caliber the 20x113mm, they were pressed early into the Winter war with Russia before they could ramp up production. After the war, but before the Continuation War they changed the caliber to 20x138b because that ammo was more readily available and provided more choices, that wouldnt make them the oddball caliber country.

So the guns and weapons firing this cartridge is very few.

Here is also the L-34 boat guns which are rare chambered for this caliber:

http://i.imgur.com/qYZe8xd.jpg (A proto with a 45-round pan magazine)

http://i.imgur.com/H7duFf1.jpg (Production version with 15-round top-fed magazine. Guns went to Finnish coastal guard VMV cutters)

http://i.imgur.com/xTA9zW7.jpg (A belt-fed proto)

Thanks to Juha Tompuri from Axishistory.com forum.

Here photos of the 20mm L-34 gun from Keksintöjen kirja, Metalliteollisuus (A book of inventions, metal industry) by Väinö Airas from year 1936
These VKT(Valtion Kivääritehdas = State Rifle Factory)guns were 20x113 chambered, couple one later Tampella built ones were 20x113B chambered.


Proto belt fed




Production version with 15-round top-fed magazine. Guns went to Finnish coastal guard VMV cutters



Proto with 45 drum