20mm X-Rays

[imaokie2000]

Hi All,

I had some 20mm rounds X-Rayed last week and I need a little help with my Identification, if you do not mind. Actually, any information of references you could offer would be great!







L to R

1.) Standard USA M-601 APIT HS: M187 LOT RH 42

2.) German Exp, 20x135mm Madsen, HS: aux 44 1a, Phosphorus Tracer????

3.) German, 20x119mm Madsen, HS: asb MII/5 44 51, Phosphorus Tracer????

4.) Great Brittan, 20x119mm Madsen, HS: MADSEN K 20mm 38 S1, HEI-T????

5.) Great Brittan, 20x119mm Madsen, HS: MADSEN K 20mm 35 T2, 2nd Mode Tracer. Is it an Incendiary Tracer or what????

6.) Great Brittan, 20x119mm Madsen, HS: MADSEN K 20mm 39 S2, 2nd Model TP????

7.) Finland , 20x109mm, HS: 20L T 40, AP-T????

8.) Hungary, 20x105mm, HS: HA 1939 20m/m 297, HE-T SD?????

9.) Hungary, 20x105mm, HS: P 1 2 38, HE-T?????

 

[EOD]

L to R

1.) Standard USA M-601 APIT HS: M187 LOT RH 42
No USA here. Made in Germany for export to the US.

2.) German Exp, 20x135mm Madsen, HS: aux 44 1a, Phosphorus Tracer????
Madsen??? This is a MG213/20 aircraft gun round. The projectile is an unloaded APHE as it looks.

3.) German, 20x119mm Madsen, HS: asb MII/5 44 51, Phosphorus Tracer????
The projectile is an APHE-T-SD (obviously deactivated)

4.) Great Brittan, 20x119mm Madsen, HS: MADSEN K 20mm 38 S1, HEI-T????
This is an Incendiary WP and tricky to inert!

5.) Great Brittan, 20x119mm Madsen, HS: MADSEN K 20mm 35 T2, 2nd Mode Tracer. Is it an Incendiary Tracer or what????
This is what we would call a TP-T. Or as it was called back then "ball" or by the Brits "service projectile". Some people say this one has color markings for testing of some components as the green band in the centre sections is non standard.

6.) Great Brittan, 20x119mm Madsen, HS: MADSEN K 20mm 39 S2, 2nd Model TP????
Again, a TP.

7.) Finland , 20x109mm, HS: 20L T 40, AP-T????
Correct, AP-T.

8.) Hungary, 20x105mm, HS: HA 1939 20m/m 297, HE-T SD?????
APHE-T, no SD!

9.) Hungary, 20x105mm, HS: P 1 2 38, HE-T?????
Germany! TP-T for export. As per markings for Sweden but this caliber was not adopted there. Maybe only for tests in Sweden.

 

[jiipee76]

#7. Black with red tip is not official finnish color.Projectile itself looks like Finnish AP-T projectile(in x-ray picture) but repainted to wrong color scheme.Proper colorscheme should be greentip+red band under it.

It looks to me also that casing is 20mm Lahti L-34(20x113).Not very common casing to find! -> TREASURE!

Can you post closeup picture of the projectile?

 

[imaokie2000]

Thanks a ton, guys. #9 was really throwing me off. I knew the case did not have Hungarian markings. I saw a reference of this projectile in a Hungarian case somewhere. I have everything packed for the drive back home on Sunday, but I will get it out and post a close up pic of #7 tonight.

Once again, Thank you Very Much!

 

[jiipee76]

#8 Hungarian APHE-T is live definetly.

 

[imaokie2000]

Not for long. All but the first two from the left are getting sectioned.

You are correct. #7 is a 20mm Lahti L-34(20x113). This is close up pics of the projectile.

 

[jiipee76]

You are correct. #7 is a 20mm Lahti L-34(20x113). This is close up pics of the projectile.

Weird looking projectile.Show us this projectile again,once you get it sectioned.

Are you going to section that Lahti casing too? :O

I sold one such complete round for over 3xx euros here.They are quite desired here at home...

 

[imaokie2000]

Weird looking projectile.Show us this projectile again,once you get it sectioned.

Are you going to section that Lahti casing too? :O

I sold one such complete round for over xxx euros here.They are quite desired here at home...

I won't section the case, since there's really nothing hanging down inside to look at.

 

[jiipee76]

Here is 20x113 Lahti L-34 round types.

Left: 135g Solid AP(Practice/Unhardened steel)
Middle: 150g AP-T(New and old colorings)
Right: Italian 136g HE-T(SD)

 

[Tony Williams]

I didn't know that the Italians made the 20x113 ammo. Why?

 

[EOD]

Tony, the Finns just loaded Italian projectiles.

 

[Tmine35]

IMAOKIE2000, could you measure length of the Lahti projectile from case mouth to tip, or if detachable rather the total length.

Finnish ammo manuals say some dimensions for these projectiles but I have specimens of something else as well.

 

[jiipee76]

I didn't know that the Italians made the 20x113 ammo. Why?

Finnish factory only loaded rounds with Italian HE projectiles.

There is also super rare 20x113B type casing made by firm Tampella.I have seen only one such casing.But i guess there could be more in the world.

 

[Tony Williams]

ECRA Bulletin 514 (February 2008) includes a photo of several different 20mm Lahti rounds or cases in Bill Woodin's collection. These are: 20 x 75B (case), 20 x 81, 20 x 97B (case), 20 x 98B, 20 x 99B (case), 20 x 113 and 20 x 113B. Bill notes that the 20 x 97B and 20 x 99B may be the same, both having a reduced diameter rim compared with the 20 x 98B.

 

[jiipee76]

ECRA Bulletin 514 (February 2008) includes a photo of several different 20mm Lahti rounds or cases in Bill Woodin's collection. These are: 20 x 75B (case), 20 x 81, 20 x 97B (case), 20 x 98B, 20 x 99B (case), 20 x 113 and 20 x 113B. Bill notes that the 20 x 97B and 20 x 99B may be the same, both having a reduced diameter rim compared with the 20 x 98B.

Where i could find this ECRA bulletin 514 or just pictures of those casings?

 

[Tmine35]

I sent it to you attached to PM.

 

[imaokie2000]

IMAOKIE2000, could you measure length of the Lahti projectile from case mouth to tip, or if detachable rather the total length.

Finnish ammo manuals say some dimensions for these projectiles but I have specimens of something else as well.

Tmine35, from the case to the tip is about 63.7mm

 

[Tmine35]

Thank you.
Your projectile length corresponds Finnish WWII ammo manual.
These guns and ammo were sold to USA after the war, thus the cartridges pop up there regularly. Long ago I got from USA 2 rounds with AP-projectile length 60mm which I can't find in manuals.
Length of your projectile should be 63mm according to drawing, but according to my experience in Finnish AP-shells length may vary within 1mm easily, but not 3mm as mine are.

 

[imaokie2000]

This is a pic of 8 Finnish rounds I have. The 2 rounds on the right and the single projectile has projectile lengths of 69.4mm. I'm not sure what the total length is on the others. I don't want to pull the projectiles. They are aprox 63.7mm from the case mouth though.

 

[Tmine35]

According to manual AP- and training projectile total length should be 75mm and from case mouth to tip 63mm, base 12mm. How much is distance in the 3 ones on right from behind of driving band to tip?
Also weight of loose projectile?
Training projectiles for L-34 should weight 134-136 grams and AP- and APT 150 grams.

How are headstamps of your L-34 cases? There are at least 4 different headstamps.