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German 17cm Naval

US-Subs

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For unknown reasons (post-war testing?) the State of Michigan has a number of WWI German 17cm Naval projectiles (Spgr. L/4'7 (Haube) floating around. Over the years I have seen 3 in collections, I have picked up 2, National Guard EOD has one and local bomb squads have destroyed 2. Checking in my references I cannot find which fuze belongs in this projectile, does anyone have the information available? Thanks.

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Hi jeff, It uses the following fuzes see attatchments.
 

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Thanks Erik, I don't think I've seen the E Kzdr version before.
 
Thanks Alpini that helps. I've never managed to get the ogive off from either of my projectiles. I know that mine do not have fuzes in them by removal of the nipple on the end of the ogive, but after looking at the diagram of both the projectile construction and the construction of the fuze, it would seem very difficult, if not impossible, to verify the absence of a E Kzdr fuze by Xray? At least with a relatively low powered pulse unit as used by most police squads - ? It looks as though the profile of the fuze would fall below or level with the steel lip around the fuze well.
 
If you can get the tip off the false cap, you can run a long piece of welding rod through the fuze hole to the inside base of the projectile. If you can do that, it is empty. Tons of this ammunition and many of the guns were brought back from Europe after WWI for testing in USA. There are many of these projectiles now scattered through out the country. I've never heard of a live one being found anywhere. Sometime presumably in the 1920's, these were given to Veterans Halls and parks and such for decoration. I've seen walkways lined with these projectiles. The trick is to find one that was indoors its whole life and is not rusted. There must have been lots of cases brought back too, but those are a lot harder to find, probably many were scrapped during WWII.
 
If you can get the tip off the false cap, you can run a long piece of welding rod through the fuze hole to the inside base of the projectile. If you can do that, it is empty.

I understand the thought behind this, but noting the construction and functioning of the fuze under discussion, that seems like a poor procedure.

I've never seen a live one either, but they still need to be checked.
 
These were designed to be fired by a cannon, the fuze is not sensitive. Live projectiles were shipped to the field with shipping plugs, not fuzes. They were fuzed prior to firing. The large cap (Haube) was removed, the shipping plug unscrewed, the fuze screwed into the projectile, a long wood dowel placed into the fuze, the small tip on the top of the Haube removed and the Haube then fit over the projectile with dowel in place and screwed down. Then it was fired. They were never left fuzed with the Haube in place. It is up to the collector to make sure nothing in his collection is live, for his safety and the safety of his neighbors. EOD and Bomb Squad doctrine is simple, everything is live, blow it up. It is up to us as collectors to be sure every single item in the collection is empty and can be proven empty. Another way to do this if you are afraid to run a piece of welding rod or a thin wood dowel through the projectile is to drop a small light through the hole and visually inspect. I am not talking about a fired dud recovered from a battlefield here, these are projectiles that were emptied by the army decades ago and given to parks and Veterans Halls, for display.
 
These were designed to be fired by a cannon, the fuze is not sensitive. Live projectiles were shipped to the field with shipping plugs, not fuzes. They were fuzed prior to firing. The large cap (Haube) was removed, the shipping plug unscrewed, the fuze screwed into the projectile, a long wood dowel placed into the fuze, the small tip on the top of the Haube removed and the Haube then fit over the projectile with dowel in place and screwed down. Then it was fired. They were never left fuzed with the Haube in place. It is up to the collector to make sure nothing in his collection is live, for his safety and the safety of his neighbors. EOD and Bomb Squad doctrine is simple, everything is live, blow it up. It is up to us as collectors to be sure every single item in the collection is empty and can be proven empty. Another way to do this if you are afraid to run a piece of welding rod or a thin wood dowel through the projectile is to drop a small light through the hole and visually inspect. I am not talking about a fired dud recovered from a battlefield here, these are projectiles that were emptied by the army decades ago and given to parks and Veterans Halls, for display.


I should probably just bite my tongue and keep silent, but it is a quiet afternoon and I have some rare spare time, so what the hell.
This statement, while no doubt well intentioned, is poorly thought through, misguided, short-sighted and ignorant (I'm being gentle).

To begin with, as you mention these munitions were brought over for testing. To assume that personnel in the US were familiar with all procedures used by Germany - and followed them faithfully while here in the US - is a stretch. Further, to state procedures and follow with a statement that something is "never" done is simply ignorant. These tests/use/loading were done by the military. I've spent my career cleaning up other people's mistakes, especially in the military, "never" always seems to be used just before the greatest screw-ups.

Second, these items were brought here to be tested. Which means that they were loaded. To advise over the internet to people that you have never seen with ordnance that you have not inspected, that all were simply "projectiles that were emptied by the army decades ago and given to parks and Veterans Halls, for display" gives credit to these people that they can tell which were emptied and which were not, as well as which were fired and which were not. Regardless, of all of the full rounds that were to be emptied, some got out live - they always do. In addition, of those tested, 1:10 failed to function and sits somewhere on a range, waiting to be found and brought home, months, decades or a century later.

To advise that the way to inspect these same unseen projectiles and look for a fuze with a funnel shaped opening into its firing train is to run a welding rod through the unseen fuze well to the bottom of the projectile is (no longer gentle) simply stupid to the extreme. Further, the part about "fired by cannon and the fuze is not sensitive" is too ignorant to comment on, as is the use of "afraid". If you have no respect for the functioning or hazard of the fuze, why check for it in the first place? I'll have to keep in mind that in the future I don't need to examine items to see if they are live or not, just to see if the military gave any of them to Veteran's halls.

While I am throwing in my two cents here, in regard to the EOD and Bomb Squad personnel that you have so much experience with and seem to regard so highly, their doctrine is to treat everything as live - until/unless it can be positively identified as otherwise. If, in the time that they have available, they are not able to prove this to an acceptable level with the training and resources available to them - then the items may be disposed of.

I realize that the initial intent was to offer helpful information, but it needs to be recognized that many people read this forum, often with very little experience or understanding - not only in regard to the munitions but also to the potential penalties for following misguided advice.
 
Yes the Xray would have problems with such large projectile.
How about an endoscope?
Your local EOD could have one.
Or local hospital.
If it is long enough you could check the body cavity.

There are ways how to deal safely with ammunition.
And yes, if I can not confirm it is emty I always consider it live, no matter if it was standing in a museum for 50 Years.

Cheers, Bob
 
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I'm not saying it is 100% guaranteed, but you could weigh the projectile and compare weight to other known empty projectiles.
 
The teams are currently using X-ray, I was looking at it to see if that was a reliable procedure or not. My recommendation has been fiber-optics (same as endoscope)through the opening in the nose, as this is something that the teams have readily available. All of the teams have the capability, so, lacking any obstruction that would prevent a clear insertion into the nose, this should work well. While useful I would save using a scale as a later effort as it is not something they carry as normal equipment and it is a lesser form of verification - you are not getting a visual and you are putting full faith in the information you have been given. Some teams would accept this, some might not.

Thanks to all.
 
Question,
the only references that I have for this projectile are for WWI. Does anyone know if it was used into WWII as well? Thanks in advance.
 
Yes this did see action in ww2 as a field gun i believe. I have 2 of them, I think my second is a ww2 variant while the first is definitely ww1 as evidenced by the imperial German navy stamp.
Question,
the only references that I have for this projectile are for WWI. Does anyone know if it was used into WWII as well? Thanks in advance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_cm_Kanone_18

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These projectiles are everywhere in the US, I am trying to figure out why. The typical answer would be post-war testing and evaluation, but which war? And why so widespread? Normally a round this heavy might be found regionally (shipping costs), but these are everywhere. I don't remember seeing anything on a large number of the guns across the US.

I've had seven of the rounds, I'm currently down to three but have just been told I'm getting another donated, possibly today. I'm writing a short article for a trade journal, it would be nice to have more info on the background. What other States have we got them in? Owners, not rumors. I've seen plenty of them firsthand in Michigan, Indiana, Ohio and Oklahoma.
 
I've got a couple in Idaho, and I had another one I picked up in New Hampshire. I have one of the cartridge cases and had another that came from New Hampshire.
 
Jeff,

If you got the complete round from RW in Oklahoma, you should know the projectile came from Wisconsin and the case from Oregon
 
Can't say as to why so many German Navy projectiles are floating around, but it is surely a sign of the times....you know how many houses/building/parks/etc I have seen in the NE that had 6" and bigger projo's used as fence posts, door guards, etc? I remember one house in particular I would drive past all the time that must have had 20 or more 8" projectiles around the front with chain welded to the lifting plugs as its fence...

I know they were 8" because a militaria dealer buddy of mine scored two from the back from the owner which he had on his porch going into his house...

They must have been giving the things away like crazy back then....sure as heck wouldn't happen now....
 
Jeff,

If you got the complete round from RW in Oklahoma, you should know the projectile came from Wisconsin and the case from Oregon

Thanks Rick, but he had three projos when I was there and I saw no case..... I took the one projo just because it is the only one I've found in nice condition that would easily unscrew. Adds more locations though.
I did end up with another yesterday - as well as a T- numbered 90mm HE and a training 75mm cartridge. All out of Detroit.
 
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