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Info Needed On Date The Rheinmetall 120MM DM38 TPCSDS-T Round Was Type Classified
- Thread starter apfsds
- Start date
I cant answer your question, but here you might find additional usefull information
http://www.kotsch88.de/m_120_mm.htm
http://www.kotsch88.de/m_120_mm.htm
Thank you so much for the great link, Manniman. I wish I could read German. While I do not think that link explains when the DM38 was type classified it does have a lot of great info on other German made 120MM APFSDS rounds that will be very useful to me for a article I am writing. Thank you very much.
There is one chart shown that I believe holds some very valuable information. Would it be possible for someone to translate the charts header categories? I copied and pasted the charts header bellow.
Thank you so much.
Jason
There is one chart shown that I believe holds some very valuable information. Would it be possible for someone to translate the charts header categories? I copied and pasted the charts header bellow.
Thank you so much.
Jason
Geschoss- index | Patronen_ gewicht kg | Geschoss-/ Penetrator gewicht kg | Kaliber Geschoss / Penetrator mm | Geschoss- lnge mm | Penetrator- lnge mm | Lngen- verhltnis L/D | Anfangs- geschwindigkeit m/sec | Bemerkung |
|---|
Excellent info, again, Manniman. The inert specimen in my collection is marked "51-31." I did not realize that this was some type of date code. Very cool. Now I need to find its earliest, first, LOT #'s to establish it's creation date. I am working on an article for the IAA Journal on the "Developmental Time-line of US made 120MM DS Tank Fired Ammunition" which started out buy copying the German made DM13 APFSDS and the DM38 TPCSDS rounds.
Jason
Jason
Przezdzieblo
Well-Known Member
Jason,
with such title please mind that first US APFSDS (experimental, but counts) were those for 120 mm Delta gun. Two of them, Model 6 and 7, were tested before march 1962, two more, Model 9 and 10 were mentioned in report from March 1963. There were also Model 11 and 12, tried before November 1963, and Model 13 before June 1964. All those designs were 120/40 mm (latter is calibre of subprojectile), with very interesting cut cup pusher sabot, and were quite stubby (l/d 8-9:1).
In Model 14 (ante June 1964) developers returned to ring sabot. Did not saw any mention about Model 15, but Model 16 got new subprojectile, much longer than older designs (l/d 14:1), 32 mm diameter. My guess, it was that design that latter XM578 and finally XM735 were developed from.
Generally, there were about 20 Models of Delta APFSDS, Model 1 and 2 of 90/40 mm, Model 3, 4, 8 (and maybe 5?) of 104/40 mm calibre. The rest were made for 120 mm gun (or rather guns, since there is mentioned guns with smoothbore and shallow rifling tubes). Unfortunately, I have no knowledge if Model X is full designation. For example, 105/40 mm projectile T346E17 for T210 gun got it`s Model 1 and 5. In that case Model or "Mod." was a part of full designation.
So, chronologically, history of US APFSDS projectiles for 120 mm guns started in early 1960s and restarted in late 1970s/early 1980s.
Back on topic, German 120 mm TPFSDS was advertised as a part of Rheinmetall gun system, AFAIR, from the start. Guess they developed it in early 1970s, paralely with "hot" projectile. Must check notes. Saw one mention about 120 mm TPFSDS designated as DM28, which implies it was earlier specimen than DM38, but I found that "source" not very reliable.
with such title please mind that first US APFSDS (experimental, but counts) were those for 120 mm Delta gun. Two of them, Model 6 and 7, were tested before march 1962, two more, Model 9 and 10 were mentioned in report from March 1963. There were also Model 11 and 12, tried before November 1963, and Model 13 before June 1964. All those designs were 120/40 mm (latter is calibre of subprojectile), with very interesting cut cup pusher sabot, and were quite stubby (l/d 8-9:1).
In Model 14 (ante June 1964) developers returned to ring sabot. Did not saw any mention about Model 15, but Model 16 got new subprojectile, much longer than older designs (l/d 14:1), 32 mm diameter. My guess, it was that design that latter XM578 and finally XM735 were developed from.
Generally, there were about 20 Models of Delta APFSDS, Model 1 and 2 of 90/40 mm, Model 3, 4, 8 (and maybe 5?) of 104/40 mm calibre. The rest were made for 120 mm gun (or rather guns, since there is mentioned guns with smoothbore and shallow rifling tubes). Unfortunately, I have no knowledge if Model X is full designation. For example, 105/40 mm projectile T346E17 for T210 gun got it`s Model 1 and 5. In that case Model or "Mod." was a part of full designation.
So, chronologically, history of US APFSDS projectiles for 120 mm guns started in early 1960s and restarted in late 1970s/early 1980s.
Back on topic, German 120 mm TPFSDS was advertised as a part of Rheinmetall gun system, AFAIR, from the start. Guess they developed it in early 1970s, paralely with "hot" projectile. Must check notes. Saw one mention about 120 mm TPFSDS designated as DM28, which implies it was earlier specimen than DM38, but I found that "source" not very reliable.
Thank you very much, Przezdzieblo!
That is some great history and background information and I really appreciate your help. I should have been more specific, my article is only covering the time-line of US 120MM APFSDS ammunition designed specifically for use on the L/44 series and M256 gun systems using CCC case technology fitted on the Leo 2 and M1A1, A2 MBT's. From what I learned, the 1st round for that gun system was the DM13 made in 1979 at the time the L/44 gun was being made. Earlier I wrote a short article on US 105MM tank fired APFSDS which did include the M735 and the DM28 TPCSDS.
You gave me some great info that is totally new to me. Before now, I have not heard of the Delta Gun. Very cool. I am going to see what I can find out about that, thank you
Jason
That is some great history and background information and I really appreciate your help. I should have been more specific, my article is only covering the time-line of US 120MM APFSDS ammunition designed specifically for use on the L/44 series and M256 gun systems using CCC case technology fitted on the Leo 2 and M1A1, A2 MBT's. From what I learned, the 1st round for that gun system was the DM13 made in 1979 at the time the L/44 gun was being made. Earlier I wrote a short article on US 105MM tank fired APFSDS which did include the M735 and the DM28 TPCSDS.
You gave me some great info that is totally new to me. Before now, I have not heard of the Delta Gun. Very cool. I am going to see what I can find out about that, thank you
Jason
Przezdzieblo
Well-Known Member
Is your article about 105 mm APFSDS available online? Would like to see it.
You will find some informations about Delta gun in R.P. Hunnicutt`s book on Abrams. Unfortunately, there is not much details about ammunition itself.
Few years ago I wrote an article about US smoothbore guns and arrow (APFSDS) projectiles programme, covering period since early 1950s to mid 1960s. It is a bit obsolete now (but not in the part on Delta gun/projectiles, here I found nothing new), oh, and it is in Polish, which might be a little disturbing for no-Polish reader.
You will find some informations about Delta gun in R.P. Hunnicutt`s book on Abrams. Unfortunately, there is not much details about ammunition itself.
Few years ago I wrote an article about US smoothbore guns and arrow (APFSDS) projectiles programme, covering period since early 1950s to mid 1960s. It is a bit obsolete now (but not in the part on Delta gun/projectiles, here I found nothing new), oh, and it is in Polish, which might be a little disturbing for no-Polish reader.