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Early Whitehead Torpedo Pistols

Dronic69

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Good Evening All,

I'm looking for diagrams or photos (except for the War Nose Mk 1) of the following early Whitehead torpedo "War noses" (pistols), particularly interested in the War Nose Mk2 Mod0; Mk2 Mod1 and Mk5.

The following extract provides a text description of the various Whitehead War Noses Mk1 - Mk5
(kindly borrowed from Historic Naval Ships Association (HNSA) - "History of Early Torpedos" p23-p-24)


=============================================================================================================================================

EXPLODER MECHANISMS
All of the early torpedoes employed a mechanical impact warhead detonating mechanism. These devices used percussion caps to initiate the detonation of the explosive train, and, where used, the primers (boosters) were dry guncotton placed bare in the primer case (exploder cavity) prior to installation of the mechanism. The detonating mechanisms were called "war noses."
War Nose Mk 1 was designed and manufactured by the Whitehead Torpedo Works, Weymouth, England, prior to 1900. The war nose was mounted in the primer case (exploder cavity) in the forward end of the warhead, on the longitudinal centerline of the torpedo. A firing pin capable of longitudinal motion within the body of the war nose was held in place away from the percussion cap by a shear pin made of tin. Upon impact with the target, the shear pin would be cut and the firing pin would impact the percussion cap initiating detonation of the explosive train.
To prevent accidental detonation during handling, war nose installation, tube loading, etc., the war nose had a mechanical arming feature. A screw fan (propeller) located on the forward end of the war nose (figure 13), had to be rotated about 20 revolutions (equivalent to about 70 yards of torpedo travel through the water) before the firing pin was free to move and impact the percussion cap.

fig13.jpg

Figure 13. War Nose Mk 1
War Nose Mk 1 weighed about 2-1/2 pounds, was 6 inches long and 2-1/2 inches in diameter. A very simple device, the war nose was sensitive only when impact with the target was directly on the war nose along the torpedo longitudinal axis.


War Nose Mk 2 Mod 0 was slightly larger than the Mk 1. It weighed 4-1/2 pounds, was 6-1/2 inches long and 3 inches in diameter; the same detonator as the Mk 1 was used, but a primer of dry guncotton was also used to insure detonation of the warhead.
The main advantage of the Mk 2 war nose was that it had four levers (whiskers) extending outward from the body casting which would, if struck, cause the firing pin to impact the detonator. This war nose would cause warhead detonation if struck with something less than a direct blow on the end of the war nose. War Nose Mk 2 had the same safety features as did the Mk 1.


War Nose Mk 2 Mod 1 weighed 8 pounds, was 8 inches long, and 4 inches in diameter. Identical to War Nose Mk 2 Mod 0 except for minor mechanical details, the Mod 1 had longer whiskers and thus would fire on a more glancing blow.


War Noses Mk 3 and Mk 4 never materialized beyond the experimental stage. The Mk 3 was a Mk 2 Mod 1 version with longer whiskers. The Mk 4 was an experimental model of the War Nose Mk 5 that followed the Mk 4 version.


War Nose Mk 5 was the first warhead detonating device designed to fire on impact from any angle/direction. It was also the first to have a safety device that kept the screw fan from turning while in a submerged tube. In addition, the Mk 5 incorporated a multiple detonator system to eliminate failures from this aspect. Designed for use with slow speed torpedoes, War Nose Mk 5 was unsatisfactory when torpedo speeds approached 30 knots because the releasing pin plate, which prevented the screw fan from turning prior to torpedo launch, bound due to frictional forces. The Mk 5, which was about 11 inches long, 2 inches in diameter, and weighed about 5 pounds, employed a complicated firing mechanism that downgraded its reliability.
==============================================================================================================================================================================

Thanks

Cheers

Drew
 
Hi Dronic,

I could help you but I'm not confident with the american nomenclature of weapons and fire mechanism.
Could you list the war heads weight of the relative fire mechanism?
 
Hi Lefa,

Just to clarify, are you requesting for the associated charge (explosive) weight that the pistol was used with?

If so, I just need to do some cross-checking with my references and advise back.

Thanks
Cheers
Drew
 
Here you go, if you need further infos just ask.

For general reference:

mk_zps0d233ca5.jpg
From "Torpedo Manual for Her Majesty's Fleet, 1887" taken from "WASS 133 Anni di Storia, Benito Petrucci, WASS, 2006


First spring loaded fire mechanism:

1_zpsecd37203.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


Fire mechanism for exercise heads:

2_zps5b143ecb.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


First fire mechanism that relies on the weapons mass and speed (instead of a spring) in order to be activated:

3_zps2336c70d.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


The A22 torpedo warhead fire mechanism, as above:

A22_zpse506c6f9.jpg
From the weapon's monograph


The same fire mechanism shown on a Royal Danish Navy torpedo on display in the naval musem of Copenaghen; that piece serial number is 1477, this can be tracked back to the supply to the RDN of ten 14'' weapons (serial number from 1469 to 1478) with 23Kg of explosive head, on 18 November 1882:

we_zpsafc6cfc5.jpg
Credits: me


Screw fan fire mechanism (MK-I) ready to be launched:

5_zpsc7e41086.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


The same armed and ready to hit:

4_zps7ceedfa1.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


Mobile screw fan fire mechanism (Mk-II):

6_zps807b1a67.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


Extended whiskers fire mechanism (Mk-III):

7_zps7be97469.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


Bell universal fire mechanism (Mk-IV):

8_zps82f76c36.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


Pendulum universal fire mechanism (Mk-V):

9_zps90c5e027.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


Net cutter cannon fire mechanism:

10_zpsb6973835.jpg
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"

A couple of war heads on display at the Museo Tecnico Navale of La Spezia:

weg_zpsa85aa3c1.jpg

ertbh_zpsbd962102.jpg
Credits: me
 
Lefa, great documents you got there. Any chance we can get a full digital version of these documents with all the fuzes in?
 
Glad you've appreciated the documents rarity, those are already all the sectioned fire mechanism that you can find in the book, that was published by the Whitehead in 1936.
They rapresent almost 40 (1870-1910) years of the company's fire mechanism developement, if you need '900 products we should change source.
 
First fire mechanism that relies on the weapons mass and speed (instead of a spring) in order to be activated:

View attachment 92027
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


The A22 torpedo warhead fire mechanism, as above:

View attachment 92035
From the weapon's monograph


The same fire mechanism shown on a Royal Danish Navy torpedo on display in the naval musem of Copenaghen; that piece serial number is 1477, this can be tracked back to the supply to the RDN of ten 14'' weapons (serial number from 1469 to 1478) with 23Kg of explosive head, on 18 November 1882:

View attachment 92036
Credits: me


Screw fan fire mechanism (MK-I) ready to be launched:

View attachment 92028
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


The same armed and ready to hit:

View attachment 92029
From "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"


Credits: me

Hi Lefa,

Firstly, thank you very much - apart from filling in a number of the "missing links" wrt to the chronological design of the Whitehead's pistol development, you have also confirmed a number of educated conclusions I have recently come to in ther chronological order.

For example you have now confirmed that the A22 pistol was the forerunner of the Mk-1 (the development & production of the Mk-1 was done in approx. 1886. according to a British Engineering Society article dated 1891 - I will post this soon).

Funny I only recently found the Danish Museum torpedo photos (see below) but your closeup of the pistol is superb - thank you!!!

Where did you obtain the serial number information from?

Cheers
Drew
 

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You're welcome, I'm happy to share knowledge with those who can appreciate.
The serial number information comes directly from the company's sales book.
 
You're welcome, I'm happy to share knowledge with those who can appreciate.
The serial number information comes directly from the company's sales book.

Hi Lefa,

Do you have access or a copy of the Whitehead's sales book?

In Edwyn Gray's book: "19th Century Torpedoes and their Inventors", it refers to in the Bibliography "Unpublished Material" section, of a Whitehead & Company, Fabbrica di Torpedini, Consignment Ledger covering period 20 January 1875 to 1916 and serial numbers 1 to 14,019*..............is this Ledger the same "company's sales book" that you are referring to?

As Whitehead produced approx 300 torpedoes per year, one can then using the serial number to approx. the manufacturing date to within a year or two. But accessing the Company Sales records would be more accurate and priceless.

Or is the Company Sales reference from the "La Storia del Siluro - 1860-1936, 1936"?

Thanks

Cheers
Drew

*This was the "silver bullet" that convince me the matching number stamped on all of a torpedo sections was in fact its serial number.
 
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Yes I do, is a 40 sheets document from 1975 to 1936, but I have only the period going from 1875 to 1890 and I'm not allowed to post it. Of course if you need any information just ask.

Adjusting at 250 per year will give you a more accurate result.

Of course it is the serial number, after a weapon gets created it undergo trials, after it gets its certification serial numbers are marked on each separate part, from the propellers to the head.
 
Hi Lefa,

Although the 250 per year is an approximation, would it be possible instead to advise a short yearly summary between 1875 to 1890 with the serial numbers for each year?

i.e.

1875 -1876 > Serial numbers 1-250;
1876 -1877 > Serial numbers 251-500;
etc.

In addition, it seems that the sales record /consignment ledger started in 1875, did this coincide with the introduction of the Fiume 14" Mk1?

Thanks

Cheers
Andrew

Thanks
 
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Sorry I've been unclear: I meant that the 250 years average would give you a more accurate result for the years going from 1875 to 1890.
No problem for the year summary, the ledger consignement starts on January 1875 with the 15" torpedo.
Have you seen the heads recently on sale on ebay? one has 88 as serial number, the second batch of weapons (71-121) of 1876, pretty old..
 
Hi Lefa,

Is the serial number assignment in sequence to all different models (i.e 15", 14", 18" & 21") torpedoes produced?

For example, during a specific manufacturing year, if 20 x 15" torpedoes are produced and assignment serial numbers 1-20, then after that, 30 x 14" torpedoes are produced, these would have serial numbers 21-50?

I'm assuming this is the case as a previous reference I posted stated that between 1875-1916, Whitehead Ledger had serial number 1 to 14,049.

Just clarifying.

Yes the Ebay fuse is very nice, but for $3,000 is somewhat expense, but then it comes complete with the matching nose and next section.

Did you notice the "bayonet" style attachment lugs to join the nose and base section together (obviously secured with additional screws)?

Which is why I'm interested if Whitehead ever used the Schwartzkopf bayonet attachment on his pistol design at any stage???????????

Cheers
Drew

BTW - do you have any serial number data for BMAG?
 
You're welcome, I'm happy to share knowledge with those who can appreciate.
The serial number information comes directly from the company's sales book.

Did the company's sale book cover all of Whitehead's factory sites (Initially Fiume in 1870, then Weymouth/Portland & St Tropez in 1890) or just the main Fiume site?

Thanks
Cheers
Drew
 
Have you seen the heads recently on sale on ebay? one has 88 as serial number, the second batch of weapons (71-121) of 1876, pretty old..

Further research into this appears that it is not a Whitehead pistol but in fact one of the original Schwartzkopf copies, based on the Whitehead (A22 x 14" x 14'6") torpedo, which was the second model to be mass produced.

Bear in mind that up to the introduction of the Schwartzkopf (Whitehead) torpedo, Whitehead only offered all steel types, none of the phosphor-bronze, until after Schwartzkopf introduced his copy (B22 x 356 x 5.84) when a number phosphor-bronze models were introduced by Whitehead to compete.

The serial number "88" is very early and indicates 2nd year of Whitehead's manufacture (1876) and the matching Whitehead nose cone would have been steel construction.
Given that Schwartzkopf would logically required time to tool up for production in which the first copies (all phosphor-bronze construction) were not produced/ seen until 1877......... then the previously posted pistol photo "matches" the following phosphor-bronze construction nose cone with the same serial number of "88".

BTW - Schwartzkopf also adopted the same serial numbering schema.
 

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Hi All
New on the forum.
I was searching the web for information regarding my early Whitehead torpedo. I saw the discussion between Dronic 69 and Lefa.
I have the engine back to the propellor, no air tank or there forward. It is torpedo 214, a 3 cylinder but not sure exactly what year or the diameter.
Is the diameter measured from the back plate which holds the engine or a wider point of the torpedo, which I don't have. If measuring from the back plate holding the engine then the diameter is approx. 13 inches. Can anyone give me more info on this.
Thanks
Daryl
 
Hi Daryl,

Welcome to BOCN.

Please can you post some pictures of your torpedo. Please use the go advanced reply box to upload them to the forum rather than hosting them elsewhere.

Regards,

Will.
 
Hello Daryl & welcome to the forum.

If it is Whitehead serial number #214 it was made in 1876 for the German navy and was a 15" diameter torpedo.

It was one of thirty torpedoes in that consignment.

Pls post some photos

Thanks

Cheers
Drew
 
The description on the front of the engine reads P. Brotherhood patent 1887. Most parts are stamped 214. Hope this helps. Daryl
 

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Hello Daryl,

Firstly, thank you for the photos - very nice indeed!

Some observations:

1) Although it is a Whitehead torpedo design it was not manufactured by Whitehead as it is stamped "RGF" (Royal Gun Factory) and produced under license.

2) RGF came into existence around 1890 (basically an off-shoot from "RL" -Royal Laboratories who had the Whitehead manufacturing rights and worked closely with Whitehead in torpedo development);

3) As the engine states "Botherhood patent 1887 + RGF originated around 1890 + approx. yearly production of 250-300 torpedoes /year would date your engine to circa 1890 IMHO.

4) RGF produced either 14" or 18" torpedoes at that time - at least up to 1908 when they introduced a 21" torpedo

Cheers
Drew
 
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