"Kaiserliche Admiralitat 1886" document

[kaskowiski]

Drew - what can we tell from these numbers?

 

[Dronic69]

Hi Ken,

Short answer is I don't know what these RCF manufacturing numbers relate to........................these are different to what Whitehead /Schwartzkopf used to identify different sections of a matching torpedo for shipping /re-assembling etc.

(For an example, refer to the 4th photo in post #9 (credit to Darren)):

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threa...ine-Museum-Gosport?highlight=explosion+museum *


Another torpedo manufacturing mystery.

Thanks
Cheers
Drew

* BTW - this doesn't resemble a 21" Mk 8 as indicated by the plaque IMO - seems to be more likely a early bronze 14" by the serial number "1274" and the narrow pointy nose cone...........

 

[Dronic69]

The torpedo on display at Malmo is the one that, in the Royal Italian Navy, was named B57 (B for bronze, 57 was the warhead weight); is the very same weapon that is described in the USN monograph, we have a sample preserved at La Spezia.
I do own Roessler's book but I cant find the 57kg head torpedo, which was the factory name of that weapon?

Hi Lefa,

This is very interesting..............in the following table of Italian made torpedoes, the B57-256 was produced in 1885, but the "note" down the bottom states that torpedoes were "imported" from Fiume from 1873 onwards and after WW1, Fiume became Italian territory.............so was the B57-256 actually a Whitehead export model for the Italian Navy? Or were these built by the state factory "Silurificio Italiano" in Naples? (not sure when this factory started?).

In addition, as you have stated, I also can not find an equivalent torpedo specification (57Kg) for any Whitehead nor Schwartzkopf related torpedo built around 1885 and has a 57kg charge...............

This then poses the following questions:

1) Where was this torpedo made? (locally or imported);

2) The torpedo has a schwartzkopf type pistol - was this a customised German import for the Italian Navy? (wouldn't they sell a standard product rather than have more manufacturing variations?)

3) Was it made locally and the pistol design based on a Schwartzkopf type pistol? (It's a pity we can't see how it attaches to the nose cone)

Once again more questions than answers.........................ho hum

Cheers
Drew

 

[Lefa.]

I do understand your confusion.

Fact: BMAG used to produce a 57Kg torpedo for export, looks like that at least Sweeden, Italy and the US bought it (check the war head weight in the USN weapon's monograph).
Fact: B57 is defenitely not a Whitehead torpedo.
Fact: Rossler is a good historian, I own several of his books being me interested in submarine as much as I am in underwtaer technology.. but that paticular book is not the bible, it clearly lacks big pieces of the early period.
Fact: my german defenitely sucks.

Now, when the Royal ItalianNavy used to buy both Whitehead and Schwartzkopf products (do you know what Schwartzkopf means? black head, funny enought..) they changed the nomenclature using A for W. (that stand for "acciaio", steel) and B for S. (that stand for "bronzo", bronze).
The Royal Italian Navy agreed in buying BMAG products only if the company was willing to open a factory on the Italian territory, so, in 1887, a BMAG torpedo factory in Venice was biult; from that facility comed out around 650 B57 and around 85 B90, just for the Royal Italian Navy (so also in Berlin they used to produce the 57Kg variant).
Since the products couldnt really compete with Whitehead's one, with particular reference to the B90, the Royal Italian Navy closed its relationship with BMAG forcing the closure of the Venice factory in 1901.

 

[Dronic69]

I do understand your confusion.

Fact: BMAG used to produce a 57Kg torpedo for export, looks like that at least Sweeden, Italy and the US bought it (check the war head weight in the USN weapon's monograph).

Ah yes - the USN 1903 manual does in fact state that the 14" Schwartzkopf torpedo has a charged weight of 125 lbs (=57Kg)..........................

Well done! A great spot!

Cheers
Drew

BTW - Rossler's book is certainly not a "bible" but a valid reference book in which one of the main attraction is that he has several great photos of the early c1900 bronze torpedoes, where at least the pistol type/design can be recognised.

Also both my German, Italian and even English "sucks" :tinysmile_twink_t2:

 

[Dronic69]

I dont know the exact year, but it was a BMAG C/84 just like the ones delivered to the USN and well described in the USN weapon's monograph; since the piece serial number is 1962 I believe it could range between 1885 and 1888, but likely end of 77/1888.

Schwartzkopf (BMAG) is reported to have produced a "pirated" copy of the Whitehead in 1876. Assuming BMAG produced the same average number of 250 torpedoes per year as Whitehead, and in addition, based the serial numbering on the Whitehead method, serial number "1962" may be closer to around a 1883 production date. Do you have any documents which may indicate when BMAG commencing their serial numbering? It may have been later than 1876.

Did in fact BMAG start their serial numbering with the C/84 (1883/1884) torpedo series which was the next torpedo after the pirated copy???

Also one reference mentions that by 1885, Schwartzkopf was producing up to 600 per year, in which Whitehead couldn't keep up the supply demand and forced the desperate British Navy to approach and purchased Schwartzkopf torpedoes!!!!

Thanks
Cheers
Drew

 

[Dronic69]

The only markings are P , a navan anchor and 423 ( serial number ? ) .
View attachment 91741View attachment 91746View attachment 91747

I'm just wondering if the "P" was the monogram for PRESTWICH, J.A. & Co, London?

I found a reference that they made time fuses, but have no idea when they started to manufacture ordnance or even if they were about around late 1800s???

Here's a photo of a British torpedo pistol, which interesting enough has a "P" - made by the Royal Gun Factory (RGF)

A little hard to read from the photo but the markings are:

N
/ ! \
P 18
R.G.F

I'm wondering if the "18" refers to it being an 18" torpedo pistol?

Thoughts?

Thanks
Cheers
Drew