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"Kaiserliche Admiralitat 1886" document
- Thread starter Dronic69
- Start date
Further I have received advice from the Explosion Museum in Gosport that the above two diagrams are of the Schwartzkopf C/84 torpedo (1883/84), which is a 14" (35cm) torpedo.
Recent research indicated that my Schwartzkopf pistol was from one of the early smaller 14" torpedoes, exactly which period was unknown until now, but would be approx. from between 1876 - 1888 (more on this in a future thread!) :tinysmile_twink_t: as the C/84A (1888) had a different pistol design.
As there is extremely little, bordering on "nothing at all" information on torpedo pistol design and development prior to 1890, the above could be incorrect.......................
Hum, I think I will have to re-shape my dummy striker...................
Cheers
Drew
Recent research indicated that my Schwartzkopf pistol was from one of the early smaller 14" torpedoes, exactly which period was unknown until now, but would be approx. from between 1876 - 1888 (more on this in a future thread!) :tinysmile_twink_t: as the C/84A (1888) had a different pistol design.
As there is extremely little, bordering on "nothing at all" information on torpedo pistol design and development prior to 1890, the above could be incorrect.......................
Hum, I think I will have to re-shape my dummy striker...................
Cheers
Drew
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Hi Will,
Yes I'm very familiar with your pic as I have used it for researching early pistol designs..........
I believe this was one of the next Schwartzkopf torpedo pistol designs after the one I posted above - the shorter body, shape and shear washer (lack of any shear pin holes) design matches the "war nose" diagram from the 1903 USN Schwartzkopf manual. The only thing I can't determine from the photo if it has the characteristic "bayonet" style locking mechanism. In addition, still not quite sure when this pistol design was first introduced - it might have been when the C/91 series of (1891) torpedoes were introduced as the C/84A (1888) and C/84B (1890) appears to have a completely different type of contact pistol. The fuze in your photo is also the same as the one shown on the middle torpedo.
The USN purchased their 12 x 14' Schwartzkopf torpedoes in 1898 (in which the 1903 manual is based on), indicating a possible first production year between 1891 and 1898.........
I can't quite make out the number stamp on the fuze itself? Looks like "1920" is stamp on the nose cone part........from your original photo can you read the number and advise? I have a theory that the stamp apart from matching /identifying different sections of the same torpedo (they manufactured a torpedo back then in approx. 8 sections and shipped them in four prior to being re-assembled) was also the serial number - more on that in a later post.
BTW - I did contact the Naval Museum in Montevideo seeking further information on the pistol & nose cone and sent them your photo - got a reply back stating they don't have it in the Museum............go figure!!!!
Cheers
Drew
Yes I'm very familiar with your pic as I have used it for researching early pistol designs..........
I believe this was one of the next Schwartzkopf torpedo pistol designs after the one I posted above - the shorter body, shape and shear washer (lack of any shear pin holes) design matches the "war nose" diagram from the 1903 USN Schwartzkopf manual. The only thing I can't determine from the photo if it has the characteristic "bayonet" style locking mechanism. In addition, still not quite sure when this pistol design was first introduced - it might have been when the C/91 series of (1891) torpedoes were introduced as the C/84A (1888) and C/84B (1890) appears to have a completely different type of contact pistol. The fuze in your photo is also the same as the one shown on the middle torpedo.
The USN purchased their 12 x 14' Schwartzkopf torpedoes in 1898 (in which the 1903 manual is based on), indicating a possible first production year between 1891 and 1898.........
I can't quite make out the number stamp on the fuze itself? Looks like "1920" is stamp on the nose cone part........from your original photo can you read the number and advise? I have a theory that the stamp apart from matching /identifying different sections of the same torpedo (they manufactured a torpedo back then in approx. 8 sections and shipped them in four prior to being re-assembled) was also the serial number - more on that in a later post.
BTW - I did contact the Naval Museum in Montevideo seeking further information on the pistol & nose cone and sent them your photo - got a reply back stating they don't have it in the Museum............go figure!!!!
Cheers
Drew
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Hello ,
I bought this fuze about 25 years ago out of an old collection , the owner told me it was a german fuze becaused it is marked P for Polte .
Is this an other model of a Schwartzkopf fuze ? I let the pictures speak for themselves . The only markings are P , a navan anchor and 423 ( serial number ? ) .
Seppe.
I bought this fuze about 25 years ago out of an old collection , the owner told me it was a german fuze becaused it is marked P for Polte .
Is this an other model of a Schwartzkopf fuze ? I let the pictures speak for themselves . The only markings are P , a navan anchor and 423 ( serial number ? ) .
Seppe.
glevum
Well-Known Member
Hi Drew,
I posted a full resolution image of what I have. It is the only picture I took.
There is a picture of another Torpedo Warhead on the Museum's website.
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Museos/MuseoNavalROU/MN09.jpg
Regards,
Will.
I posted a full resolution image of what I have. It is the only picture I took.
There is a picture of another Torpedo Warhead on the Museum's website.
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Museos/MuseoNavalROU/MN09.jpg
Regards,
Will.
Hi Seppe,
This is not a Schwartzkopf fuze* IMO but resembles a Whitehead Mk1 instead (see photo) ......................it hasn't the Schwartzkopf characteristic "bayonet" style locking mechanism (refer to the above photos in this thread) but has the typical Whitehead screw thread. The "P" and anchor stamp are interesting - may not have been produced by the Whitehead Fiume factory, but under licence by a foreign government (Whitehead spent most of this time trying to flog this torpedo design off to anyone and everyone)
*I state not a Schwartzkopf but bear in mind that Schwartzkopf "copied" the Whitehead design /torpedo in 1873 and produced a Whitehead copy in 1876 - also was referred to as a "Blackhead", but in general was known as a "Whitehead-Schwartzkopf" torpedo. (Seemed everyone knew about it) - this was based on the 1871 Fiume 14" (small) torpedo. The fact that Schwartzkopf initially "copied" it, I'm assuming the Whitehead torpedo was copied 100% in all details, which would indicate that the Schwartzkopf pistol also had a screw thread rather than the bayonet attachment back then. It is documented that in 1883, Schwartzkopf introduced another 14" torpedo (i.e. the C/84) which had increased speed, range and charge - it was perhaps during this time that the first appearance of the "bayonet" style attachment was introduced as shown earlier in this thread with my C/84 pistol body. I have located one or two photos of the corresponding Circa 1877 Whitehead torpedoes (referred to as either "C/77" or "C35/77" in German documentation) in which the pistol design can be visualized. This design was based more on a direct impact exploder and appears not to have any arming (fan) nor shear pin /washer protection. I'll post my research of early Whitehead /Schwartzkopf pistol design development between 1871 to 1900 in the near future.
There is also a recent thread on the Whitehead Mk1:
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/89352-Early-Whitehead-Torpedo-Pistols
Thanks for posting the photos of your pistol.
Cheers
Drew
This is not a Schwartzkopf fuze* IMO but resembles a Whitehead Mk1 instead (see photo) ......................it hasn't the Schwartzkopf characteristic "bayonet" style locking mechanism (refer to the above photos in this thread) but has the typical Whitehead screw thread. The "P" and anchor stamp are interesting - may not have been produced by the Whitehead Fiume factory, but under licence by a foreign government (Whitehead spent most of this time trying to flog this torpedo design off to anyone and everyone)
*I state not a Schwartzkopf but bear in mind that Schwartzkopf "copied" the Whitehead design /torpedo in 1873 and produced a Whitehead copy in 1876 - also was referred to as a "Blackhead", but in general was known as a "Whitehead-Schwartzkopf" torpedo. (Seemed everyone knew about it) - this was based on the 1871 Fiume 14" (small) torpedo. The fact that Schwartzkopf initially "copied" it, I'm assuming the Whitehead torpedo was copied 100% in all details, which would indicate that the Schwartzkopf pistol also had a screw thread rather than the bayonet attachment back then. It is documented that in 1883, Schwartzkopf introduced another 14" torpedo (i.e. the C/84) which had increased speed, range and charge - it was perhaps during this time that the first appearance of the "bayonet" style attachment was introduced as shown earlier in this thread with my C/84 pistol body. I have located one or two photos of the corresponding Circa 1877 Whitehead torpedoes (referred to as either "C/77" or "C35/77" in German documentation) in which the pistol design can be visualized. This design was based more on a direct impact exploder and appears not to have any arming (fan) nor shear pin /washer protection. I'll post my research of early Whitehead /Schwartzkopf pistol design development between 1871 to 1900 in the near future.
There is also a recent thread on the Whitehead Mk1:
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/89352-Early-Whitehead-Torpedo-Pistols
Thanks for posting the photos of your pistol.
Cheers
Drew
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Thanks Will,
I'll try sending another email with "their" website photo attached and see what response I get................... from memory the Museum replied back within a day or so.
Thanks
Cheers
Drew
kaskowiski
Well-Known Member
This is a fascinating thread
Does anyone know how many early 14 inch Whiteheads survive in Museums and collections (I know of one in NZ) - The photo of three posted by Dronic69 looks very interesting.
Didnt the Schwartzkopf also use more bronze in construction that the whitehead.
Kume
Does anyone know how many early 14 inch Whiteheads survive in Museums and collections (I know of one in NZ) - The photo of three posted by Dronic69 looks very interesting.
Didnt the Schwartzkopf also use more bronze in construction that the whitehead.
Kume
kaskowiski
Well-Known Member
Can anyone help identify this one - apologies for poor qualitypic. I will try and take another one showing detail. 
Hi Kume,
Great question!
There are still a handful of the early 14" Whitehead torpedoes about.............but the number appears to be very limited in comparison to the number of other Museum torpedoes - for example the Explosion Museum in Gosport has fifty odd torpedoes in its collection, but only a very few of the early ones, in which a couple are on display (refer to the Explosion Museum visit thread with pics).
I believe that the Rijeka Museum in Croatia, is located on or near Whitehead original Fiume factory was - they have a few:
http://www.muzej-rijeka.hr/torpedo/en/video.html
Yes the Schwartzkopf biggest selling point was that it was all bronze construction, whereas the Whiteheads was mostly steel, therefore requiring ongoing maintenance to protect against the salt water. (However it has been documented that the Whitehead still out performed it during a number of sea trials)
Would love to see photos of the one in NZ if possible at some stage?
The photo of the 3 x torpedoes are from the Naval Museum in Madrid:
http://www.canal-madrid.com/guia_de_museos/museo_naval_01.htm
Cheers
Drew
Great question!
There are still a handful of the early 14" Whitehead torpedoes about.............but the number appears to be very limited in comparison to the number of other Museum torpedoes - for example the Explosion Museum in Gosport has fifty odd torpedoes in its collection, but only a very few of the early ones, in which a couple are on display (refer to the Explosion Museum visit thread with pics).
I believe that the Rijeka Museum in Croatia, is located on or near Whitehead original Fiume factory was - they have a few:
http://www.muzej-rijeka.hr/torpedo/en/video.html
Yes the Schwartzkopf biggest selling point was that it was all bronze construction, whereas the Whiteheads was mostly steel, therefore requiring ongoing maintenance to protect against the salt water. (However it has been documented that the Whitehead still out performed it during a number of sea trials)
Would love to see photos of the one in NZ if possible at some stage?
The photo of the 3 x torpedoes are from the Naval Museum in Madrid:
http://www.canal-madrid.com/guia_de_museos/museo_naval_01.htm
Cheers
Drew
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Oh boy! Another different type....................................ahhhhhh
Yes, could you please get a photo so the markings can be clearly viewed and a couple of different angles?
What diameter is the torpedo?
Is it all bronze or only the nose cone?
Perhaps Natter or EOD may like to share their thoughts on this one?
Thanks
Cheers
Drew
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kaskowiski
Well-Known Member
The Madrid 3 are stunning and appear to be arranged in Chronological order
The NZ torpedo is all bronze (I think but will have to check) 14 inch Mk IX made in Woolwich based on the broad arrow in the mid 1890s. Twin counter rotating Four blade prop behind the rudder
Ken
The NZ torpedo is all bronze (I think but will have to check) 14 inch Mk IX made in Woolwich based on the broad arrow in the mid 1890s. Twin counter rotating Four blade prop behind the rudder
Ken
Hi Ken,
Yes you are spot on, the RGF 14" Mk IX was introduced in 1893 - interesting enough I have a footnote stating that the quadruple propeller blades were adopted in 1898.
Would love to see a photo of those as well at your next opportunity (and further close-ups of the pistol!
)
Also where about is this torpedo - in a Museum?
Thanks
Cheers
Drew
Yes you are spot on, the RGF 14" Mk IX was introduced in 1893 - interesting enough I have a footnote stating that the quadruple propeller blades were adopted in 1898.
Would love to see a photo of those as well at your next opportunity (and further close-ups of the pistol!
)Also where about is this torpedo - in a Museum?
Thanks
Cheers
Drew
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I dont know the exact year, but it was a BMAG C/84 just like the ones delivered to the USN and well described in the USN weapon's monograph; since the piece serial number is 1962 I believe it could range between 1885 and 1888, but likely end of 77/1888.
The place is the Technology and Maritime Museum, where the stunning U3 submarine rests..
The place is the Technology and Maritime Museum, where the stunning U3 submarine rests..
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Schwartzkopf (later became Berliner Maschinenbau or BMAG) produced about 600 torpedoes a year around the mid-1880s, but I do not know exactly when this pistol as shown in your photo and described in the USN 1903 manual was first introduced? If known, then a much closer year production to serial number can be made. The "imperial admirality diagram of 1886 at the beginning of this thread clearly shows the older style pistol with the longer but more tapered body and used the shear pin rather than the shear washer of the later design.
Rossler has a photo of the C/84A which has a completely different pistol design (see below - I believe the 2nd photo is of a C/84 but not 100% sure), however there was a C/84B torpedo version introduced in 1889, which may be when this pistol was first implemented..........I'm thinking your photo may be of a C/84B torpedo????????????
It is clear from Rossler's book that the following were produced:
1) C/84 (1883/1884)
2) C/84A (1888)
3) C/84B (1889)
then the next 14" one was the c35/91 (1891), however, unable to find any pistol related information on this one.
Thanks
Cheers
Drew
Rossler has a photo of the C/84A which has a completely different pistol design (see below - I believe the 2nd photo is of a C/84 but not 100% sure), however there was a C/84B torpedo version introduced in 1889, which may be when this pistol was first implemented..........I'm thinking your photo may be of a C/84B torpedo????????????
It is clear from Rossler's book that the following were produced:
1) C/84 (1883/1884)
2) C/84A (1888)
3) C/84B (1889)
then the next 14" one was the c35/91 (1891), however, unable to find any pistol related information on this one.
Thanks
Cheers
Drew
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My problem is that I'm not confident with other navies/producers nomenclature, we do think in warhead weight.
The torpedo on display at Malmo is the one that, in the Royal Italian Navy, was named B57 (B for bronze, 57 was the warhead weight); is the very same weapon that is described in the USN monograph, we have a sample preserved at La Spezia.
I do own Roessler's book but I cant find the 57kg head torpedo, which was the factory name of that weapon?
From: the weapon's monograph
Credits: me
The torpedo on display at Malmo is the one that, in the Royal Italian Navy, was named B57 (B for bronze, 57 was the warhead weight); is the very same weapon that is described in the USN monograph, we have a sample preserved at La Spezia.
I do own Roessler's book but I cant find the 57kg head torpedo, which was the factory name of that weapon?
From: the weapon's monograph
Credits: me
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