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20mm MG FF/M Ammunition + German Aircraft Self Destruction Equipment

K

khanmak

Well-Known Member
Hi,
I am assisting with archaeological recovery of a crashed German ME110 during August. This aircraft was shot down in August 1940 and is believed to have been armed with x2 20 mm MG FF/M guns (as well as MG17,s & an MG15).
Can anybody supply me with some good images of the types of ammunition 20mm for this weapon? I wish to build it into the brief for the project (for identity purposes as well as for health and safety purposes).

Also.. does anybody have any ideas of any self destruct mechanisms fitted to German aircraft of this type (assuming for perhaps sensitive communication equipment as well as for a possible incendiary device to destroy the actual aircraft!).

Also, also... does anybody have any ideas of the loadings of 7.92mm ammunition for the MG17's and MG15?
Any help much appreciated.

Regards
Mark
 
Hi Mark,I am unable to help with information regarding the ammunition etc,but from memory I am sure I have read that the radio was fitted with a self destruct also I have read somewhere that some of the pilot/navigators maps were treated with an inflammable substance which caused the map to burst into flames when unfolded in the wrong sequence,I have never been able to verify this but it was mentioned in a book I read regarding a an Me 109 E (I think)shot down during the Battle of Britain,I have found maps in crashed aircraft and the pilots course was clearly visible marked on the map after many years buried in the wreckage,all valuable information (at the time the aircraft crashed) should it fall into enemy hands,
Regards,
Don,
 
Hi Mark


I have attached a picture of some 20cm FFM ammunition. From L - R
they are:


HE (M - Geschoss)
HE/I
HE unpainted
Practice/Ball
AP/I


As far as the 7.92 ammunition is concerned my only experience is a saddle magazine from an MG 15 which was loaded with a mix of B Patrone,(Observing - filled with Phosphorus and a small detonator) PmK (AP/I filled phosphorus) and SmK L’spr (AP/T).


Best




Ian

DSC_0272.jpg
 
beihan62 said:
Hi Mark,I am unable to help with information regarding the ammunition etc,but from memory I am sure I have read that the radio was fitted with a self destruct also I have read somewhere that some of the pilot/navigators maps were treated with an inflammable substance which caused the map to burst into flames when unfolded in the wrong sequence,I have never been able to verify this but it was mentioned in a book I read regarding a an Me 109 E (I think)shot down during the Battle of Britain,I have found maps in crashed aircraft and the pilots course was clearly visible marked on the map after many years buried in the wreckage,all valuable information (at the time the aircraft crashed) should it fall into enemy hands,
Regards,
Don,
Click to expand...

That sounds like an urban myth to me. The possibility for accidents would be very high! However, I would be very interested if anyone could provide some hard evidence.
 
Mark, I have some info on 7.92mm ammo loading sequences from 1944, but it probably didn't alter much during the war.

The belt-fed MG 17 gun in fixed fighter installations was typically loaded with 5x SmK AP, 4x PmK API and 1x B-Patrone (Beobachtungsgeschoss or observation round, which gave a bright flash on impact ). From 1940 the v-munition (verbessert = improved) loadings were introduced; these were high-velocity loadings of the ammo only used in the MG 17, which had to be modified to cope with the extra recoil. This ammo was identified by a band of green lacquer around the bullets (or a green bullet tip in very early versions).

The MG 15 used a saddle-type magazine typically loaded with 2x SmK AP, 2x SmK L'Spur AP-T (or Gl'spur dim tracers at night), and either 2x PmK API or 1x PmK and 1x B-Patrone.

The bullets did vary in their colourings depending on the type, but others will know more about that than I do.
 
I cannot go with the inflammable maps idea, having flown over 2500 hours in Phantom and Tornado as a navigator I can safely say that I would not trust my fellow aircrew with such devices! When flying operational missions over Iraq we would not put maps or flight reference material in our pockets. You would carry paper work out to the aircraft in an old helmet bag and then put in the map pocket in the aircraft, if shot down the material would hopefully be consumed in the crash. Even if not material of this nature is of limited value as it pertains to that mission, the route would not be flown again and by the time it was recovered and analysed the mission would be over. What would be of long term value would be documentation on the technical performance of the aircraft, fuel planning guides, cruise speed, weapon performance guides as these would apply for years until the aircraft went out of service. Naturally we tried not to carry such material!
 
From what I can remember(it was many years ago I read the book,I hasten to add it was not a novel)the incident with the flammable map was related roughly as follows,a british pilot went to have a close look at an early type Me,109 he had shot down during the Battle of Britain,he was about to remove a map from the cockpit to keep as a souvenier when the IO,(Inteligence officer)stopped him and explained why,the explanation was that some maps were treated with a chemical that caused the map to ignite unless opened in a certain way,in the early 80s(I think) we recovered a Miles Master trainer near Tern Hill,tucked in the cockpit coaming there were the pilots flight map,the map was perfectly legible and the course he was flying that day was clearly marked,flying a triangular flight plan starting and ending at Tern Hill,with other airfields clearly marked,that particular aircraft (T8827)had been buried in a peat bog for 30+ years,at the time of the crash that map would give valuable information to anyone finding it,I have no way of verifying what was written in the book though I will admit I have never heard of anything like it before or since,it could well be urban myth,should it be so I apologise,
Regards,
Don,
 
Perhaps the origins of the story were something like this: Someone picked up a map which had become soaked in aircraft fuel after a crash. This was then accidentally ignited by whatever method. It was then mistakenly assumed that this was a "self-destruct" mechanism.
 
That explanation wouldn't surprise me.

The Japanese 20mm Type 97 self-loading anti-tank rifle is often referred to as firing only on automatic. This is not true, it was semi-auto only, but when one was being tested in the USA the sear failed and it emptied the magazine in one burst (which must have been a memorable experience for the unfortunate gunner!).
 
It is the practicalities of this that bothers me. At what point would you apply the flammable material? If completed at manufacture you would have a sensitive explosive material to transport and store all the way to the point of use at the airfield. If applied at the airfield you would need specialist training and storage facilities. I just would not fancy having a dodgy exploding map on my lap when sat on a aviation fuel and surrounded by ammunition! I agree that maps of this nature have an intelligence value, I understand that documentation from a Spitfire forced down over Calais resulted in a raid on a coastal command airfield during the Battle of Britain because that particular mission launched from a non fighter command base, however for me the risk of loosing aircraft to cockpit fires would outweigh the benefit. I have read many German pilots accounts of their flying in WW2 but cannot recall a mention of flammable maps.
 
I think you have convinced me that it is an urban myth,thinking about it there are far too many problems ascociated with having a flammable map in a potentially explosive environment, I apologise for my misleading information,
Don,
 
No apologies required! It is always good when a thread gets the grey matter working hard! This forum is always full of interesting material and the discussion is always honest and open, long may it continue.
 
The map myth could be a form of ,'if you don't fold it correctly, it'll disintegrate'.
Anybody who has roughly folded a map can see how quickly they deteriorate,thats why there is a specific 'map fold' system to preserve the paper.
 
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