Russian 180mm S-23 Heavy Gun

[Vasco Da Gama]

Can anybody help with some information on the post WW2 Russian 180mm S-23 heavy gun? I have one reference that suggests that this gun used a bag charge but I remain to be convinced. The gun was exported to Syria and Eygpt, at least one being captured by Israel. I understand that this gun was developed from the Naval 180mm gun that was also used for Coast defense. Any thoughts, a case length would be really good!

 

[HAZORD]

The Wikipedia article says they originally built 7 guns, and then when Syria asked for some they made 12 more. I take anything on Wikipedia with a bucket of salt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_mm_gun_S-23

The second article alludes to it being wired with "caps and powder", so I'm thinking Bag loaded. I've never heard of a case for one.

It was nuclear capable, and fired heavy conventional and rocket assisted projectiles.

http://survincity.com/2009/08/180-mm-gun-s-23-52-p-572/

 

[Ivashkin]

Can anybody help with some information on the post WW2 Russian 180mm S-23 heavy gun? I have one reference that suggests that this gun used a bag charge but I remain to be convinced. The gun was exported to Syria and Eygpt, at least one being captured by Israel. I understand that this gun was developed from the Naval 180mm gun that was also used for Coast defense. Any thoughts, a case length would be really good!

Russian language Wikipedia talks another versions, in which I belive more. Adopted to Army at 1955. In 1956 build 7 cannons, then stopted. And in 1970 started again. Uses in ex-USSR, Somalia, Egypt, Syria and India and ex-Iraq. And nothing about full number of made models.
And cannon uses case with powder charge, which you can change.

 

[HAZORD]

Ivashkin,

Do you have a drawing or any measurements for the cartridge case?

 

[Ivashkin]

Ivashkin,

Do you have a drawing or any measurements for the cartridge case?

I don`t have photos. I`ll try to fined tomorrow. Not a lot of information about this cannon - ptohos or from two museums: or Sankt-Petersburg or in Israil. I don`t know why, but I don`t have information about this cannon in one Soviet or maybe russian book, where you can fined indexes for all calibers of mortars, cannons, grenades and bullets too. Book has 203-mm B-4, but doesn`t have 180-mm.But book printed on in end of 1980th or begine of 1990th.

 

[wichitaslumlord]

I just acquired the case and projectile pictured below for the Russian S-23 180mm Gun. I have them displayed together for effect, as they do make an impressive set. To answer the original question, the case measures 85.25cm tall.
It is well marked but I don't know what most of the markings mean.
Any help in translation would be greatly appreciated. THANKS! Pat

 

[HAZORD]

Your Cartridge case says it's for a 152mm gun.

In addition, that projo that high in the air and resting on a nice flexible rug looks like an avalanche waiting to happen!

 

[Eggburt1969]

Can anybody help with some information on the post WW2 Russian 180mm S-23 heavy gun? I have one reference that suggests that this gun used a bag charge but I remain to be convinced. The gun was exported to Syria and Eygpt, at least one being captured by Israel. I understand that this gun was developed from the Naval 180mm gun that was also used for Coast defense. Any thoughts, a case length would be really good!

These images help answer your question?





So the breech ring has an interrupted screw thread, as does the breech block of course. From the threaded areas that can be seen, to lock the breech the breech block is rotated about 45 degrees. The breech block has a 'De Bange' obturator system with an axial vent tube. As such the 180 mm S-23 (С-23) towed gun uses separate-loading ammunition; projectile, bag charge, and primers (tubes).

There's some data on the 3OF23 (3ОФ23) rocket-assisted projectile below, but little on the 3VOF28 (3ВОФ28) round's charge system.

http://soviet-ammo.ucoz.ru/index/180_of23/0-244

I have a copy of 'Issue 8' of the Russian magazines Technology & Weapons from 1999 that's got a bit on it, but I don't have any manuals.

As stated previously, the cartridge case shown in the image (below) is for a 152 mm (well 152.4 mm) weapon, more specifically, a 2S5 Giatsint-S (2С5 Гиацинт-С) self-propelled gun, or a 2A36 Giatsint-B (2А36 Гиацинт-Б) towed gun. The case, its GRAU designation 4G21 (4Г21), holds the 4Zh48 (4Ж48) charge system, and a 4V7 (4В7) primer. The designations that are part of the case's stencilled markings are normally truncated, so the 4Zh48 (4Ж48) charge is shown as Zh48 (Ж48).

 

[wichitaslumlord]

Thank you very much for the detailed information. The stencils are undoubtedly original to the case, so what has happened? The case measures 190mm and the projectile measures 180mm. I had assumed the difference was due to expansion of the case during firing. The projectile has a large enough rotating band to allow it to sit on top of the case.
Is it possible that a 180mm - 190mm case was used with a 152mm projectile or could it have been necked down and that part has been cut off. Again, the case is 85.25cm tall.
Thanks again, Pat

P.S. As per the stability of the round, the carpet was quite temporary. We have been experiencing a lot of minor earthquakes around here lately which will wreak havoc on the whole collection room if they ever get severe! Thanks for the pointer John!
Pat

 

[Eggburt1969]

Thank you very much for the detailed information. The stencils are undoubtedly original to the case, so what has happened? The case measures 190mm and the projectile measures 180mm. I had assumed the difference was due to expansion of the case during firing. The projectile has a large enough rotating band to allow it to sit on top of the case.
Is it possible that a 180mm - 190mm case was used with a 152mm projectile or could it have been necked down and that part has been cut off. Again, the case is 85.25cm tall.
Thanks again, Pat

P.S. As per the stability of the round, the carpet was quite temporary. We have been experiencing a lot of minor earthquakes around here lately which will wreak havoc on the whole collection room if they ever get severe! Thanks for the pointer John!
Pat

No problem. I didn't know much about it myself beforehand, so looking up details on it increased my knowledge.

As to the case. Nope, that's its dimensions. It has no neck to be removed. Specifications and an image from a current manufacturer are below.

Calibre = 152 mm
Material = Brass
Weight = 14.1 ± 0.07 kg
Length = 857 mm
Diameter (rim) = 224 mm
Diameter (neck) = 190 mm



PS I've no idea why it's listing the KS-30 (КС-30) next to the 2S5 Giatsint-S (2С5 Гиацинт-С), as the former is a 130 mm anti-aircraft gun? An image and specifications of the KS-30's case, the 54-G-481 (54-Г-481), are below.



Calibre = 130 mm
Material = Brass
Weight = 11.35 ± 0.4 kg
Length = 846 mm
Diameter (rim) = 185 mm
Diameter (neck) = 143.3 mm

 

[charley777]

Hello
This is confusing information... the dimensions above given for the KS-30 are ACTUALLY for the M-46 towed gun ( 130x846R x185 )
I have a KS-30 (KC-30) case measuring 130x994R x177 ...it is longer and narrower than the M-46 case.
Will attach photos of KS-30 stencil and the 2 cases side by side.
Cheers

 

[Eggburt1969]

It's quite possible I've assigned the case the wrong dimensions!

They list that they make three 130 mm cases: the A4-G-44 for the naval AK-130; the 54-G-481 for the KS-30; and the 54-G-482 for the M-46

In their specs table they only list dimensions of two 130 mm cases and don't specify which is which:

Calibre = 130 mm
Material = Steel
Weight = 8.9 ± 0.3 kg
Length = 773 mm
Diameter (rim) = 179.96 mm
Diameter (neck) = 134.5 mm

Calibre = 130 mm
Material = Brass
Weight = 11.35 ± 0.4 kg
Length = 846 mm
Diameter (rim) = 185 mm
Diameter (neck) = 143.3 mm

I have manuals for the KC-30 & M-46, but neither lists the cases' dimensions.

Diagrams of the M-46's case look a bit different from either of your two cases, as it has a very short neck. I suppose the neck could be blown out on firing to fit the chamber, but I don't know the chamber dimensions, or I just can't seen the neck on your shorter case?



The KS-30's case is similar to your longer one, but there's two cases listed in the manual. The first is a straight tapered case that is stated to be the standard live-fire case.



The second, which is for training and is inert, is of the classic bottle-necked design.

 

[charley777]

Hello Eggburt
Well that is very interesting.... the two different cases for the KS-30.
Mine is the bottlenecked one ...with a clear circular crimp.

Both my M-26 cases have a short neck... i have no doubts about their identity. And i think you are right about the fired case having a less obvious neck.

The AK-130 naval case for which you above give a length of 773mm is also interesting
My list gives a length of 757mm.
Recently acquired Janssens book (thanks Hoeksel!) also says 757mm.
Sometimes given lengths include a closure cap. However i seem to recall a picture of the AK-130 ammo that shows fixed rounds. So that explanation would not be valid.

Have also listing for an unknown (probably naval) Russian case of 861mm long.
And the SM-2 / SM-4 naval case has a 1024mm length.

 

[Eggburt1969]

Yes, quite interesting. I've not had reason to do anything with 130 mm Russian ammo, but had data on them.

The KS-30 is separate loading, a cased charge and a separate projectile. Your cased charge would seem to be, if the markings are correct and from what's left that I can see, a 54-ZhD-481 (54-ЖД-481). This containing the 54-BD-481 (54-БД-481) propulsion charge that uses DG-2 22/1 (ДГ-2 21/1) propellant (nitrocellulose and nitrodiglycol). It should have a KV-5-U (КВ-5-У) primer in the base.

The AK-130 ammo is fixed. An example, the A3-UZS-44R (АЗ-УЗС-44Р) prox-fuzed AA round, is below.



If the image 'caption' is correct, the case attributed to the 130 mm KS-30 would seem to say that it is usable by the SM-2 (СМ-2) and SM-4 (СМ-4) gun systems? Russian Wikipedia lists the SM-2/SM-4 case length as 1024.5 mm, though it mentions that the 'straight' (slightly tapered) part chamber is 817.5 mm long and what I presume is the the distance commencement of rifling is 1224 mm. Like the KS-30, they were separate loading.

 

[charley777]

Thanks Eggburt that provides some clarification.
And now i can presume that the rim diameter of the 1024mm SM-2 / SM-4 case is close to that of the KS-30 case(s).
The AK-130 must be quite a powerful system.....

 

[Eggburt1969]

[FONT=&amp]The 130 mm AK-130 (A-218), A-217 (single barrel precursor to the twin-barrel AK-130), A-192, and A-219M Naval gun systems, along with the A-222 "Bereg" coastal gun system all use the same 130 mm ammunition and have common 54-calibre (6,990 mm) length barrels. I take it this is the barrel length minus the breech and muzzle brake, but its not clear. The fixed rounds contain ≈10.5 kg of propellent behind a common 33.4 kg weight projectile. This generates a muzzle velocity (MV) of ≈850 m/s and muzzle energy (ME) of ≈12.1 MJ.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]The M-46, its barrel length ≈58.5-calibres (7,600 mm) with the breech included, or ≈52.7-calibres (6,850 mm) for the barrel alone; the bore is [/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]≈[/FONT]45.1-calibres (5,860 mm). Again, it uses the common weight 33.4 kg projectiles. Its max charge containing ≈13.0 kg of propellant, which gives it an MV or ≈930 m/s and an ME of ≈14.4 MJ.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]The KS-30, its barrel length ≈63.6-calibres (8,266 mm) with the breech included, or 60.3-calibres (7,837 mm) for the barrel alone[/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]; the bore is [/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]≈[/FONT]51.6-calibres ([/FONT]6,714 mm). Again, it uses the common weight 33.4 kg projectiles. Its max charge containing ≈14.3 kg of propellant, which gives it an MV or ≈970 m/s and an ME of ≈15.7 MJ.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]So, to answer your question, AK-130 is powerful, as it has a rapid rate of fire (43-46 rounds a minute), but it doesn’t produce as high a muzzle energy as the other 130 mm guns. Saying that, some sources say its initial MV is ≈956 m/s, which ups its ME to ≈15.3 MJ, but I can't conform this fact.[/FONT]

 

[charley777]

Yes that is quite something .... AK-130
Images from the internet.

Not sure how this 180mm thread became a 130mm discussion.
But so it goes ....