possible - British Torpedo Gyroscope? help needed

[butterfly]

This is a recent find,

I bought it as a British Torpedo Gyroscope, however I cannot be certain, hopefully someone can help identify it. - Torpedo gyro or not it would be nice to find out exactly what it is.
here are some pictures.....

regards Kev

 

[apfsds]

Beautiful specimen, Butterfly!

I have been collecting torpedo gyroscopes for about 15 years now. I have specimens from 1902 to present day with 8 countries represented and I have never seen this one. That being said, it does look like a torpedo gyro to me. It looks to be compressed gas driven? If so, I'm guessing it is pretty old. VERY VERY NICE!

Jason

 

[butterfly]

Hi Jason,
thanks for your reply.........I'm even more curious now.

I read your thread, link below, and I can see some similarities in yours and the one I have.
First of all the lettering AA - I dont know the significance of this but it appears on both your British example and this one.
Secondly, there is a 'disc' enscribed, what appears to be 0 - 9 in 180degrees - 0-9 in Red (port?) and 0-9 in Black? (Starboard?). On my example it is beneath the 'sphere' , on yours it is above. (see photos below) (I dont know what this is for but its common to both.

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/90825-Trying-To-ID-This-British-Torpedo-Gyroscope

Finally I have added some photos of detail which you may recognise for positive ID as a Torpedo Gyro. (apologies for the quality, snapshots taken under artifical light, but you may get some ideas from them)

I was told by the seller it was from a British MK VIII torpedo - however over the years I have learnt not to 'trust' all I am told - so would like to find out for certain.

any help appreciated.

kind regards Kev

 

[butterfly]

Jason,

here are two photographs shown in your thread, I have marked on them, both the 'AA' mark and the '0-9 disc' I refer to above (I'm afraid I dont know the proper terminology for the latter).

regards Kev

 

[gravelbelly]

Yes, your gyro looks like a torpedo gyro but not for the Mark VIII. The Mark VIII and Mark IX torpedoes are run completely using compressed air and Shale Oil. The oil and air together power the 4 cylinder engine and compressed air does everything else; run up the gyro wheel, sense gyro movement, actuate steering rudders and depth planes. The gyro wheel is a lovely shiny bronze flywheel with lots of little "buckets" machined into its periphery into which high pressure air is directed. Almost everything you see inside a Mark VIII or IX is bronze, the gyro and gimbals, depth attitude pendulum, engine - all bronze.

gravelbelly

 

[butterfly]

Hi gravelbelly,

thankyou for the confirmation that what I have is actually a torpedo gyro........ now its just a case of working out which one!!

here are some more close up pics. I tried to take some pictures of the buckets on the flywheel, but its only visible through two holes which appear to line up with the brass tubes (for air?), I guess when it is initially run. I also tried to take a photo of one hole lined up with the tube.

there is also a few other features that I dont know what they are, including a small 'nozzle' and a brass fitment that is machined as though something fits into it. I'm afraid I dont know a lot about these, but find it fascinating. I certainly would be interested to know what sort of age it is and if possible get a positive ID. Unfortunately my search so far on the internet has proved fruitless; I cant find anything similar.

I am assuming that it is a British gyro?

regards Kev

 

[Dronic69]

I am assuming that it is a British gyro?

regards Kev

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmxNp1h8pL0

Hey Kev,

I'm wondering if it is an alignment mark or a "broad arrow" stamp clearly shown at the base of the gyro in Photo #2 in your first post???

Perhaps the "6/47" is the date stamp?

HNSA website seems to have undergone a facelift and unfortunately quite a number of the old service manuals are no longer available - use to have a number on WW2 British related naval ordnance.

In my opinion the construction appears to be a torpedo gyro - but Jason is the expert on Gyros and giant Ninja Turtles!!! :tongue:.

Cheers
Drew

 

[butterfly]

Hey Kev,

I'm wondering if it is an alignment mark or a "broad arrow" stamp clearly shown at the base of the gyro in Photo #2 in your first post???

Perhaps the "6/47" is the date stamp?

HNSA website seems to have undergone a facelift and unfortunately quite a number of the old service manuals are no longer available - use to have a number on WW2 British related naval ordnance.

In my opinion the construction appears to be a torpedo gyro - but Jason is the expert on Gyros and giant Ninja Turtles!!! :tongue:.

Cheers
Drew

Hi Drew,

Thanks for your reply; I am now confident that what I have is indeed a Torpedo Gyro. The Gyro flywheel has buckets, but they are concealed in the 'sphere' and can only be seen through two holes which appear to line up with two tubes set into the outer gimbal, when the gyro would be caged. (.....I am learning a little about these amazing items!!) ........ as yet I am not sure how the gyro was 'caged', but this may be obvious to someone with more experience in these items.

As for the arrow in the photo you posted, I can confirm that this is actually an alignment arrow; photo three in post 3 of this thread, shows it aligned with a line and '0' - there is another number which is not easy to read right next to the gimbal, which appears to be a '5' (the whole gyro has residue lubricant - oil or grease and could do with a good clean, though I havent attempted to do anything of the kind yet, as I didnt want to do any harm to it.
Again, I am not sure of the action of the brass section which forms one end of the outer gimbal, but I can only assume at this stage that it is part of 'offset' angle setting, whereby the torpedo is set to run at an angle other than that of the tube that launches it.
There are however other arrows on the Gyro, may be for alignment, but one I think may be a broad arrow - I will photograph them asap.

There does appear to be a lack of any material on British Torpedoes as a whole. Very little on the internet that I can see. It is a pity that the manuals were removed from the website you mention, hopefully though someone will have downloaded them whilst they were there and maybe come up with an answer for this one.

The 6 47 may well be a date, indeed the seller said it was the date, however like everything else I will wait to see. I am not sure if the '/' between the two numbers (ie; 6 / 47), is just a 'scratch' mark which happens to be in the right place, or has been put there on purpose - it appears a little rough in comparison to the stamped numbers.........again I would need to see how other gyros conform, and if dates were put onto them before I can be sure. However having said that, from what I have seen on the internet about these, this one does appear to be a reasonably early example and could well fit into the time period (47 ??). I wouldnt want to narrow things down in my search regarding this mark though, and use it as a 'guide only' in my quest to find out exactly what timeframe and indeed what type of torpedo it is from.


I will upload more photos using daylight as soon as my camera batteries are recharged!!

many thanks Drew, and indeed everyone who has helped me so far with this.

kind regards Kev

 

[Dronic69]

Hey Kev,

Have a look at this old post of mine re the German WW2 torpedo gyro - it explains (well I hope it does!) how the limiter (points "B" & "C") restricts the initial movement of the gyro until the compressed air has sufficient time to spin it up to the operating rpm.

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/77665-German-WW2-T-5-Torpedo-Gyro

In the restricted position, the compressed air nozzle is directed onto the machined "buckets" around the circumference of the gyro, enabling optimization to the required operating rpm.

If you compared a number of different torpedo gyros, the steering gyros all appear to be based on a standard physical size and construction- there are also "other" gyros used in some torpedoes (aerial) for stabilizing, which are normally physically smaller compared to the steering gyro.

Cheers
Drew

 

[butterfly]

more detailed photos as promised........(more to follow)....

in this batch,
photo 1 shows the numbered disc located inside the sphere - hopefully showing the two colours red and black?
photo 2 & 3 show the 'buckets' photographed through one of the two holes. not easy to photograph but the buckets themselves are quite deep and obviously rotated by compressed air/gas. These are remarkable to see, but almost impossible to photograph, I am sorry for the poor quality of the images, which is not helped by the reflection of the sphere!!
photo 4 shows the arrow, referred to earlier in this thread by Drew, this photo shows that it is clearly for alignment purposes and is set at 0. there is another number to the left hand side, close to the gimbal, which looks to be a number 5 - a clean up may make things clearer as there is an accumulation of dirt/grease/dust etc.
photos 5 & 6 show a brass tube fixed into the gimbal, presumably for air, this tube then appears to pass to the underside of the outer gimbal, to the end opposite that to where the brass geared mechanism is located. These two photos also show another 'arrow' this time located on one of the brass tubes - I suspect this is for alignment, but what for I dont know?

 

[butterfly]

more....

photo 1 shows what I believe to be a Broad Arrow, as opposed to an alignment arrow.
photo 2 shows a small 'nozzle'?? not sure what this is for
photos 3 & 4 show something which has been scratched into the 'sphere' - there are numbers toward the bottom of the large 'A'? mark, which I hadn't noticed until I took the photo!!
photos 5,6 & 7 show one of the air/gas ports with an unusual machined part, which is close to the 'small nozzle', maybe it has something to do with this as it forms a sort of arrow head pointing toward the nozzle with a ridge (see photos)

 

[butterfly]

final few, I hope they are of interest,
regards Kev

photo 1 shows some markings on one of the axis points for the inner flywheel. Note there appear to be markings underneath the hexagonal securing nut. This side is also the side with the numbered inner disc.
photos 2,3,4 & 5 show close up of the 'geared section' of the gyro - again I do not know what exactly this part is for - possibly for an offsetting the gyro for an angled shot and maybe part of stabalizing to stop the torpedo running left or right???
photo 6 is a close up shot showing how the 'air/gas' tube? inset into the outer gimbal, appears to pass to the underside of the gimbal?? (see just above the hex nut - not easy to photograph- sorry)
photo 7 shows a close up of the numbers 6 47 with the diagonal mark, is this the date? or just random numbers - I have no idea.

 

[butterfly]

Hey Kev,

Have a look at this old post of mine re the German WW2 torpedo gyro - it explains (well I hope it does!) how the limiter (points "B" & "C") restricts the initial movement of the gyro until the compressed air has sufficient time to spin it up to the operating rpm.

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/77665-German-WW2-T-5-Torpedo-Gyro

In the restricted position, the compressed air nozzle is directed onto the machined "buckets" around the circumference of the gyro, enabling optimization to the required operating rpm.

If you compared a number of different torpedo gyros, the steering gyros all appear to be based on a standard physical size and construction- there are also "other" gyros used in some torpedoes (aerial) for stabilizing, which are normally physically smaller compared to the steering gyro.

Cheers
Drew

Thankyou Drew,

I will have a good read of your thread.......its good to learn about something new

*** excellent thread Drew, its confirmed a few things for me regarding mine, though unfortunately as mine is just the gyro part and not the whole assembly it also adds further questions, but thats often the case; answer one question and add several more!! - appreciate the link you gave ***

regarding the stablilizing gyros, I have one from a crashed V1, its been smashed by impact but its good to see inside it. Three of these were used in the V1 - they are indeed much smaller - and lighter. When this Torpedo gyro arrived I was suprised by the weight of it - of course water weight is not such an issue, but in the air, weight has to be kept to a minimum.
here is an old thread of mine on the V1 gyro - http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/81415-V1-Flying-Bomb-part-(gyro)

regards Kev

 

[tigbrand]

Hi Chaps,would be some info in this lot on post ww2 torpedos,many of which were pre or ww2 designs anyway. You have to register and pay though.Tig. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/record?catid=405&catln=3

 

[butterfly]

Hi Chaps,would be some info in this lot on post ww2 torpedos,many of which were pre or ww2 designs anyway. You have to register and pay though.Tig. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/record?catid=405&catln=3

Thanks for the link Tig, appreciated.

I was hoping someone may recognise some details in the close-up photos to narrow the search down somewhat.

Assuming this is a British Gyro?? is there anything to narrow it down between aircraft launched and ship/submarine launched or were the gyros in both types of the same sort of design? (ie being 18" as opposed to 21" were the gyros any smaller or constructed differently in any way)

Also I have posted a number of close-up pictures, do any of these give any further clues as to the time period for this piece? (this is of course ignoring the 6 / 47 which may/may not be the date?) Was there a period in time where air/gas driven torpedoes gave way to electric torpedoes across the board, as regards new manufacture rather than old stock (I am aware that it was a MKVIII torpedo that sunk the General Belgrano during the Falklands conflict)

cheers Kev

 

[butterfly]

Below is a photo of the gyroscope that I posted previous showing an arrow pointing to 'zero'. Carefully inserting a 'key' into the gearing mechanism I found that it was free and worked easily. As the gears turn it revolves the brass base which reveals more enscribed numbers....... the numbers either side of the zero setting are 45, 90 and 135 - which correspond to degrees in relation to zero. Why specifically these numbers, I can only assume either there was another scale for reading off the angles, and these were 'basic settings'; or, that these were 'simple' angles with preset calculations already worked out.
Of course I may be barking up the wrong tree altogether, however it may again be another clue as to the age of this particular gyro.

as is often the case, one answer throws open a dozen more questions!!!!! LOL!!

regards Kev

 

[apfsds]

Kev,

Most early torpedo gyroscope required that the gyro angle is manually set before launching.

Jason

 

[butterfly]

Kev,

Most early torpedo gyroscope required that the gyro angle is manually set before launching.

Jason

Hi Jason,

.....so then I assume that these markings would be manual setting. an angle of either 45, 90 or 135 degrees is a better angle to work out the complicated maths of an offset angle shot than say 36.5 degrees?

Computers would be able to work out the complicated maths involved for settings such as 36.5 degrees but in the heat of battle and with a slide rule etc it would take lots of time.

I found this online which deals with the first world war and gives an idea of the maths involved.......

http://tvre.org/en/gyro-angled-torpedoes

regards Kev

 

[butterfly]

I've cleaned the gyro a little, as it had a build up of dust and grime ......... here is the result (not easy to photograph due to the reflective surface).


regards Kev

 

[apfsds]

Kev, it is 110% a torpedo gyro. I just acquired the same specimen for my collection from a Greek seller. I cannot be certain, but I believe your specimen may be from 1947? Mine is dated 1952.