Welcome to the Inert Ordnance Collectors.
  • Login:
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 17 of 17
  1. #11
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Romania
    Posts
    19
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 29 Times in 11 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamk View Post
    One remark:
    The Bomb racks shown in the first photograph on the Potez 25 are the regular French original bomb racks of this plane - I'll try to scan you a drawing from the original manual of the plane - They are a development of the Michelin type 4 bomb racks of ww1, often seen on Breguet 14. To the best of my knowledge, they were only used on the Potez 25 (wings and fuselage) and, more rarely, under the wings of the Breguet XIX.
    Each could indeed accommodate 2 rows of 10kg or 12kg bombs (one row behind the other) or a single row of 25kg bombs. The Poles produced an improved version, much less cumbersome, for their own Potez 25.
    The IAR-Barbieri seem therefore to be the 6x12kg bomb racks, (or two units of 6x12kg, set side by side to obtain a row of 12x12kg) shown on the following photos, mostly flushed into the wings. A similar design was often seen on PZL planes (though it may have been in fact a Czech design, originally) such as the PZL 23 and PZL 37.
    .
    I don`t want to contradict you, as I said before i`m not very knowledgeable on airdropped munitions (I`m mostly into small arms and artillery), but i`m almost sure the racks from the first picture are the first pattern of IAR-Barbieri as they are described in the technical note. Unfortunately I only have these three photos, but it`s sufficient to see that there is a set of three launchers, which is what we see in the photo. Maybe it`s a copy of the French rack? I don`t know yet. If you can find some photos with the Michelin racks, we could compare the features.

    131890816_709249706667770_8731301351440325218_n.jpg78226494_2522937971094005_7986801139305676800_n.jpg79432460_2522961554424980_5697637429427568640_n.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamk View Post
    BTW I found a photo of a IAR 80/81 equipped with the Romanian designed bombs:
    On the left the plane with American pattern bombs under fuselage and wings, on the right the plane with Romanian pattern bombs under fuselage and wings (on notes the difference being the tails of these bombs)
    I have both photos at a slightly better resolution. Here you go, the photo with the Romanian bombs. Please note that the central, 250kg bomb has a nose fuze and also a base fuze that i have yet to ID.
    42828352_285315485527025_248139944525037568_o.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamk View Post
    An interesting point is that on the photo at the right the Romanian design bombs seem to be equipped with the M-103 nose fuze (or a copy of it) which equipped the M series bombs. This raises the question whether what is seen on the remnants of these bombs is a nose fuze or rather a nose plug with lateral lugs
    It is a nose plug / adapter / booster gaine , whatever you wanna call it, and the fuze is not M-103. Here is the fuse, but I have not been able to ID it or find if it`s copied from something else (except the fact that it has an arming vane, it doesn`t resemble the M-103 in any way).

    vlcsnap-error568.jpg

    The lugs are 100% for vertical suspension as you can see in this scene. They are loaded into a He-111.

    vlcsnap-error246.jpgvlcsnap-error427.jpg

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Irod7 For This Useful Post:

    Dreamk (19th December 2020)

  3. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Budapest, Hungary, Hungary
    Posts
    161
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 121 Times in 63 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Irod7 View Post
    Please note that the central, 250kg bomb has a nose fuze and also a base fuze that i have yet to ID.

    vlcsnap-error568.jpg

    The nose fuze is very much like the midwar US Mk. VII. I wouldn't be surprised if the tail fuze was Mk. V.
    523d4cf4a2e57_5426a94eaa9b0-01.jpeg
    Last edited by strakv; 18th December 2020 at 11:42 PM.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to strakv For This Useful Post:

    Dreamk (19th December 2020), Irod7 (19th December 2020)

  5. #13
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Romania
    Posts
    19
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 29 Times in 11 Posts
    Thanks a lot Vince, yes it seems to be a Mk. VII, not just from the vane shape, but the adaptors in my two bomb fragments march the thread and lower fuze shape. I will make a sketch some day....
    Also, I looked at the diagram with the Mk. V and I recognized some parts from the primer that were found together with my fragments (it was a bomb drop practice area). So yes, it seems you are correct with the Mk. V as well!

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Irod7 For This Useful Post:

    Dreamk (19th December 2020)

  7. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    399
    Thanks
    86
    Thanked 467 Times in 184 Posts
    Irod Hi!

    These photographs are exceptional and eye-opening! Thank you very much for uploading them.

    The pictures of the Barbieri indeed enable to understand the differences with the French and Polish bomb racks, its filiation and what stands behind its development. Fascinating!

    The Original Potez 25 was an observation and liaison aircraft (A2 category) equipped only with a vertical F 12x10 vomb rack (Alkan Lesourd box type bomb rack for 2 rows side by side of vertically mounted 10kg bombs) inside the fuselage.
    The bombing version (B2 category) developed for exportation included the possibility of mounting a Michelin bomb rack under each wings.
    The original Michelin bomb rack of ww1 fame could accommodate 6 x 10kg French bombs in 2 rows, one behind the other, but this was often considered as not safe and only the front row of 6 bombs was mounted. In the case of 12kg PuW bombs, the length of the bombs prevented even to think about mounting 2 bombs one behind the other, so only the front row configuration was possible with these.
    The next step was therefore the development of the Michelin No5 bomb rack - a modular bomb rack fitting 2 rows of 2x10kg or 2x12kg bombs, one behind the other, long enough to fit even the PuW bombs.
    The Potez 25B2 used by the Poles had a set of 3 Michelin No5 juxtaposed side by side under each wing, enabling to fit 12x12kg PuW bombs under each wings.
    The Michelin bomb racks were often installed upon a board for a better repartition of the weights under the wings.
    The Potex 25 TOE included a set of Michelin bomb racks under each wing for 12x10kg or 12x12kg bombs, and a further third set under the fuselage, for and additional set of 12x10kg or 12x12kg bombs

    In each case this demanded the aircraft to be especially designed for taking this bombs racks with he necessary wiring under the wings.

    Here comes the Barbieri with offers a smart. clever and efficient way to retrofit ANY version of the aircraft with such a possibility of bomb carrying - probably the first ever implementation of the concept of modular armament kit - The wiring is integral to the kit and can be easily passed to the observer-bomber cabin through one of the various holes under the fuselage of the plane (such as the camera hole) and the installation is much faster than the connecting the individual wings wirings to each Michelin bomb rack sub-unit.

    ww1 Michelin bomb rack
    ww1 French Bombes Michelin.gif
    Michelin No5 drawing, a triple unit fit under a Polish machine (without supporting board) and the basic unit
    Potez TOE 3.jpg Potez 25 A2 Polish 5.jpg Potez 25 TOE 4.jpg
    Potez 25 TOE Installation
    Potez 25 TOE 1.jpg Potez 25 TOE 2.jpg

    If already speaking of bomb racks, do you know whether the initial batch of SM79B acquired by Romania were equipped with the original Italian vertical bomb racks? I know that at some time they were fitted with 2 French vertical bomb racks (box type) in the fuselage (32x10 / 8x50). (The IAR/JRS79B were equipped from the beginning with French model Swiatecky type horizontal bomb racks)
    Were Italian produced bombs used by Romania? I seem to remember having seen a photograph of a Romanian CANT Z-510 flying boat with a pair of Italian hydrostatic bombs but I may be mistaken.
    Last edited by Dreamk; 19th December 2020 at 05:42 PM.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Dreamk For This Useful Post:

    Irod7 (21st December 2020)

  9. #15
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Romania
    Posts
    19
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 29 Times in 11 Posts
    Thank you very much for the information! I really appreciate it!

    I don`t know of any Italian bombs being produced or used by Romania.
    Regarding your question on SM-79B, according to the technical note from this aircraft, both the SM-79B and the JIS and JRS-79B (Italian- and Romanian-produced variants of the SM-79B with Jumo 211Da engines) had horizontal bomb racks, although I don`t know exactly the model. If you can ID the launcher and the bombs used, I would be very happy to learn something new.

    DSC07421.JPG132430852_734418073867710_937383513354001508_n.jpg

    Below, attached a photo of a JIS with the crew and a 100? kg bomb. Any input on the nationality, model, etc. of the bomb would be appreciated.
    resize_of_savoia_marchetti_jis79b_bombowiec.jpg


    Again, based on the technical note, it seems that there was the possibility to attach 4x launchers for bigger bombs below the fuselage, at the wing root. You have already posted this image before, but I am adding it for the sake of better following of the discussion.

    DSC07419.JPG

    And a couple stills from a bombing raid video, where some bomb outlines can be seen. Again, i`d appreciate it if you could ID the bombs in cause.

    vlcsnap-error091.jpgvlcsnap-error422.jpgvlcsnap-error905.jpg
    Last edited by Irod7; 21st December 2020 at 11:34 PM.

  10. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    399
    Thanks
    86
    Thanked 467 Times in 184 Posts
    Irod Hi!
    yes, The bomb you see besides the SM79B is a French 100 or 200kg bomb - I would say 200kg by size comparison with the height of the seated/kneeling soldiers.
    This drawing is of a 200kg bomb initial production model.
    200kg.gif
    in 1938 a new model was introduced with an annular stabilization tail ring instead of the square one - both models co-existed in the units during ww2
    200kg French Bombs WWII Photo-.JPG
    Interestingly, the Romanian seem to have received a batch of the most recent French bombs with the annular ring fins reinforcement
    Annotation 2019-10-31 085852 Bombes Francaises pour JRS79B Roumain .jpg
    The IAR 79 were equipped with 2 different kind of bomb racks:
    1) Either 2 box type Alkan Lesourd F type (either F8x50 or F32x10) one behind the other (generally 2x F8x50, the French 50kg DT/ DT2 bomb was a preferred weapon, a very efficient bomb which design and production began at the end of ww1 and remained in service with the French Air Force till the early 1960s!, begin even produced by the French Vichy authorities for the German Luftwaffe in WW2)
    Annotation 2019-11-10 095849 2 Vertcial bomb Racks type V8x50 32x10.jpg such bomb racks equipped also the Romanian Potez 25 and Potez 543 (though it was generally the F12x10 that was mounted in these planes rather than the 8x50, as 50-100-200kg bombs were generally mounted on external GPU on these planes)
    2) either a vertical bomb rack.
    Annotation 2019-11-10 095949 Two vertical bomb racks Type S 5x100.jpg
    I always thought that this was a French type S bomb rack as such a bomb rack equipped on the Romanian Bloch 210, but the photo you uploaded shows a typical US oscillating bomb shackle of the type used on the B17 (originally the pre war Boeing 299) This is really interesting!!

    The French bomb rack, developed on the Swiatecky patent existed in various version 4x200 5x200 5x100 7x100, which were in fact the same bomb rack but with the oscillating bomb shackles placed at different height on the bomb rack "scales".
    Fig-135.--3-.jpg
    The US bomb rack had similar scales but the bombs were attached through individual oscillating bomb shackles:
    Bomb_Bay_of_Boeing_Model_299.jpg US bomb shackle 1941 Screenshot 2020-12-23 065913.jpg US bomb shackle 1941 Screenshot 2020-12-23 065818.jpg

    The Bomb dropped by the IAR79 on the movie captures are most probably French 50kg bombs (the rear of the fins seems slightly rounded and there seems to have a reinforcement between the fins, the general shape is also consistent) Such bombs were frequent in Romania:
    9_32 (1).jpg

    BTW do you have other photographs of Romanian Potez 63 or Potez 543 or Bloch 210 with bombs underwings or under fuselage, or with bombs nearby these planes?
    Last edited by Dreamk; 23rd December 2020 at 06:23 AM.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Dreamk For This Useful Post:

    Irod7 (23rd December 2020)

  12. #17
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Romania
    Posts
    19
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 29 Times in 11 Posts
    Thanks a lot for the information and Happy New Year!

    Unfortunately i don`t have any other photos or information (with the Potez planes or with any others), when I will find more I will post here.

    The photo with the technician screwing the fuzes on the bombs is quite late war, after Romania switched sides. It was taken in September 1944 on the Sibiu airfield (or it could be at Balomir, but definitely Sept 1944).

 

 
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Back to top