Torpedo tail section ID.

[Michel]

A little help needed for definite ID of this torpedo tail section. I (and others) believe this is the tail section of a English 18" airdropped torpedo made at the Royal Navy Torpedo Factory. Mostly steel with brass bits and the plate between the boayancy chamber and tail is bronze.
Is there a way to define between the different models XII XIV XV XVII from the tail section alone?
The marked number is R.N.T.F. - 217* (so modified 1 time), is there a possibility to trace back its origins to this number. Statistics I have seen give only 602 used in the 2ww maybe there where records kept?

 

[Michel]

Defenint ID is made, careful inspection reaveled the model it is a 18" mk XII* number 217. So now drawings are welcome, so is further info about the number to where the torpedo was issued (if available).

 

[apfsds]

Could also be a RNTF copy of a Whitehead torpedo made under license?

Jason

 

[Michel]

Jason, I can't find any proof that this was a whitehead pattern, but I am not a expert in this field.

 

[Dronic69]

Is this the same one that was posted on IAA late last year? (looks the same)

I came to the same conclusion that it belonged to a 18" aircraft torpedo as the reinforced propeller guard and rudder resembles the smaller 18" aircraft than the larger 21" submarine types.

How did you conclude that it is a Mk XII* ? (There were 15 different Mks produced for the 18" aircraft by RNTF - I would be very interested if you have any information on this?)

(my apologies as my interest is generally on the "other" end of a torpedo!)

Here's one of the photo I came across when researching this last year.

Jason,
In the early years Whitehead and back then RL / RGF did indeed exchange "technological improvements" (i.e. counter- rotating propellers etc), but it is a very interesting question as to when this "arrangement" actually ceased - or did it?
Whitehead died around 1905, his son John in 1902, Georg Hoyos was already dead by 1905 and the last person with any technical expertise - Capt. Gallway died in 1906.....the British government concerned that the business would fall into "unfriendly" ownership had encouraged both UK firms Vickers & Armstrong to invest equal shares etc.....that occur around 1907.
This arrangement fell apart in 1914 as Austria grabbed the Fiume works and in 1915 when Italy joined into the war, the factory's manufacturing plant was basically moved some 40 miles to St.Polten.
However it was of course a different story for the Weymouth factory, which was split away from the Fiume concern and registered as a separate company in 1907 as "Whitehead & Company" and of course building torpedoes for the Royal Navy............
RNTF came into existence around ~1917, so one could speculate that the ongoing exchange and manufacturing occurred as all companies were collaborating in one way or another as all were either British firms /government and by 1917 as WW1 was still going, the demand for production would have been seek via any available manufacturing capacity.

Cheers
Drew

 

[Michel]

Hello Jason,

The story to this torpedo tail before it came into my possesion is unknown (other then found while dredging), so maybe it is already researched. But not far enough, because I've seen markings on the tail that confirm its Id, if you are into ammo (like us) you know how stuff is marked so is this one. Maybe for the untrained eye this is not so obvious. Check out the attached pic then you can read your self XII* R.N.T.F. 271.
The 18" mk XII (design 1935) came into service 1937 and stayed in use till the end of ww2. Nice to know should be when was the torpedo modified the * denotes this, and where did it go when it left the factory (units, planes, stocked). As this was a pricey bit of kit that needed servicing maybe there are records kept somewhere.

Something strange with the pic on my Ipad/Iphone the photo is correct and on the desktop inverted? Hope you can read it.

 

[Dronic69]

If yours is the same as this one posted on IAA:

http://www.iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17809&p=127184#p127184

as it is an unusual coincidence that yours is marked "271" and the IAA was reported to be "217".......................typo?

Your photo is not in the sharpest focus - I was actual hoping you had some documentation that highlighted the differences between the RNTF 18" MK tails

Yes most RL /RGF and RNTF torpedoes are well marked, although it wasn't clear (to me anyway) from your #2 post how you determined it was a Mk XII* - whether there was a *key* physical construction point difference etc.

 

[Dronic69]

Hello Jason,

Something strange with the pic on my Ipad/Iphone the photo is correct and on the desktop inverted? Hope you can read it.

Actually it is Drew,

(Jason is the better looking cool dude)

No wonder I couldn't read it..............OK looks better now!)

Thanks
Cheers
Drew

 

[Michel]

Drew, it is the same (I think) he just got the numbers wrong and forgot the asterix * sign. There is also a just the number 271* mark but on the bottom part it is XII*. Sorry I have not got any documentation about the differences between models, the info on the net is very limited, I was hoping someone possesed the documention about this one. There is a instruction movie about this model.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JweZK_ii8c4

 

[apfsds]

Super Interesting for sure! GREAT historical info on the relationship between Whitehead and RNTF, Drew! Its puzzling because I have identical Whitehead/RNTF manufactured gyroscopes up to WW2, both copies of the Whitehead.

J

 

[Dronic69]

@Michel

Very interesting video - thank you!

The pistol shown is the Nose Impact Type 3A pistol* which was introduced in the late 1920s (see diagram).

Searching for manufacturing records with serial numbers is going to be "challenging"...............to say the least!

For example, I have recently verified that 40 x Schwartzkopf torpedoes were purchased by Great Britain for NSW in 1886 (long story but basically there was a global torpedo shortage in 1885 - believe it or not!)
The archives had practically everything - ordering and shipping information, debate on where they were to be stored on delivery etc etc except the consignment note didn't have the torpedoes serial numbers!!!
At 460 pounds each (equivalent to maintaining a torpedo boat with its crew for a year back then), one would think that the shipping information would contain the %*^$^$* serial numbers!!!)
[To put into even more perspective how expensive a Schwartzkopf torpedo was - it only cost approx. 1 pound per torpedo to ship it from Britain to Sydney]

Good luck with the manufacturing records search..................


Hi Jason

Found a couple of photos which highlights a Whitehead's Mk II Safety Fan Pistol (War Nose Mk II Mod 0") which was also made by RGF

1) Made by the Whitehead Torpedo Company ("W & Co") Weymouth; 2nd one from the LNS.
2) Made by RGF (Royal Gun Factory)

As the original agreement between Whitehead and the British Government was that RL could produce torpedoes under license.......the fact that the Royal Navy Engineers improved on the design in the late 1880s and Whitehead adopted the improvements back into his manufacturing shows there was also a close association, which continued well after Whitehead died and when other British firms invested.

Also what is interesting is the War Nose Mk 1 - this is identical to your one (note the directional arrow and lack of the 2 water escape holes) and confirms that this is a latter Mk 1 design produced by the Weymouth factory. This I believe is the one that US firm Bliss manufactured under license in from 1892 onwards, providing an explanation why the small handful of these existing examples are found in the US.

Cheers
Drew

*P3A Pistol Diagram is courtesy of TimG

 

[apfsds]

As usual, Drew, your research has blown me away! AWSOME data and GREAT pictures! I saved them all THANK YOU!


Jason

 

[Michel]

Drew, thanks for all the input very interesting read, shame that the serial no remains a mystery. Interesting to know the cost of a torpedo versus other costs.
If I can bother you one time more a picture of a ww1 Schwartzkopf contact pistol of a G6 or G7 torpedo, this would come in very handy in some thing we are researching!

 

[Dronic69]

Hi Michel,
Pictures of WW1 Schwartzkopf contact pistols are hard to find - I have more photos and diagrams of pre-1900 Schwartzkopf pistols!!!

Here are two photos:

1) First one is suppose to be a WW1 German - which torpedo type I'm not 100% sure as I was more interested in the pistol (may not even be a Schwartzkopf, however the body construction has a lot of similar characteristics to older types)
2) Second one is from the Explosion Museum, Gosport UK. The museum has it labeled as a Howard Torpedo*, which I have questioned in correspondence as I believe it is a Schwartzkopf as the pistol body appears to be identical as as (1) without the striker (IMHO).

Are you doing some research work for Gert Anderson's "Jutland Sea Museum" by any chance?

http://www.jdcon.dk/News/Sea-War-Museum-Jutland-is-now-a-reality

Cheers
Drew

* Image courtesy of SLICK

 

[Dronic69]

As usual, Drew, your research has blown me away! AWSOME data and GREAT pictures! I saved them all THANK YOU!


Jason

Thanks Mate!
Unfortunately, this what happens when you don't have any friends and haunt forums...................sad isn't it! :tinysmile_cry_t:

...........But then, I suppose there always alcohol............:tinysmile_twink_t2:

 

[Michel]

Drew, no not for the sea war museum (high on my list to visit). Last Autumn I was one of the divers to find the S.M. U31 in the North Sea and trying to find out what torpedos where loaded on the boat when it whent down with all hands in January 1915. Early in the war and the boat lying in a defensive line rather than offensive use.
Posted already.

 

[Dronic69]

Hi Michel,
What depth is the sub located at?
I use to love diving wrecks - while staying in the UK many decades ago, I dive some 21 different wrecks over a 3 week period, including the Scapa Flow battleships.

If you're into diving subs, the M2 off Weymouth is a must (35m)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_M2

Cheers
D

 

[Slick]

Dug through my old Firepower museum pics and found these. Got me to thinking about how many torpedo tails there are laying on the bottom of the ocean.

 

[Dronic69]

@Michel,

Here is a YouTube video of the restoration of a WW1 German torpedo that the AWM restored back in 2013.

It has the characteristic Schwartzkopf contact pistol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmxNp1h8pL0

Enjoy!

Cheers
Drew

 

[Michel]

Hello Drew, the film about this restauration of the torpedo I have seen already, they really polished the hell out of that torpedo.
The u31 is lying in about 33 Mtr depth, so not to deep. Scapa Flow is the place to go for every wreckdiver, so did I. Made a special deep dive there to see the 30,5 cm guns (the breech) of the S.m.s. Kronprinz Wilhelm, perfect!