7,62cm PzGr. 40

[Nabob]

In the German manual D 435/3 which describes the marking of German ordnance you will find under Lfd Nr. 80 an example of machining of driving bands.

The same with (t) under Lfd Nr 97.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Bob

 

[M8owner]

This is an excellent thread; I have learned much. I now know the three hollow charge projectiles in the middle have turned down driving bands for the French guns, and I never noticed the faint "F" on two of them before. For comparison, the one hollow charge projectile on the extreme left is German made for Russian 76mm guns, and the standard Sprgr 34 for German 75mm guns is on the extreme right.

 

[greif]

At this moment I am redecorating my house and all my documentation is in storage. When I have it at home again I will scan and post the other images from the same handbook.

The picture is from H.Dv.119/121, just as Nabob suggested. I have made a scan of the other pictures.

 

[M8owner]

I notice there is no mention of a hollow charge antitank round, greif. Did the Germans ever make a hollow charge to go with the 76.2mm X 385R Russian case to be fired from the 296 (r) field guns. I do have a German 76mm hollow charge shell in my collection, but I have only seen German manuals showing that it went with the Pak 40 case to be fired from the converted Pak 36 (r) antitank guns.

 

[greif]

I only saw a picture of a label on the website Wehrmachtskisten.fr that there was a 7,62 cm hollow charge shell in combination with the 6390 case.

 

[Nabob]

I also did not find any writen or physical evidence of Hl projectile fired fron 296 gun.
The HDv 119/118 shows one, as well as two post war czech manuals, for the regimental gun 27. (7,62cm Infanterie-Kanonenhaubitze 290 (r) - german manufactured cases have the 6390 code.
The label greif shows is from August 1944, by that time all the 296 guns had their chaimber rebored to fit the 6340 case.

Bob

 

[lc123]

Great thread since I am researching the German use of Soviet captured weapons. I can post some info later but I think the 'story-line' is...

German capture great quantities of F-22 and F-22USV guns along with a lot of ammunition. There is both a normal load (powder) and a high load (about 30% more)
The Germans use the weapons in stock form and also stock ammunition.
They modify the F-22 (longer barrel weapon) with moving the controls on the gunner side, cut down the shield and use it as a double shield, and use a 3x8 scope (pak 38?)
They then use modified ammunition including German projectiles and powder. Same Soviet case siz though.
They finally modify the F-22 by boring out breech and some rifling so they can use the Pak-40 'brass' with German manufactured 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 rot along with Pzgr 40 and Heat and smoke etc. This gun was then named the 7,62 cm Pak 36 (no 'r')
They also modified the USV gun in a similar way and it was called the FK 39 at war's end. They shared the same German ammunition.
It is not known if ZIS-3 guns were also modified in this way.

The Germans initially loaded the 'pak 40' cartridge with 2.6 Kg of powder but later documentation showed it was reduced (April 1944) to 2.45 Kg. Reason may be because of extraction issues but it is not clear.

 

[RichardB]

Thanks for the write up..
can you confirm if your belief as to whether the German manufactured ammunition, eg PzGr39 rot and PzGr40 etc were used in the Russian 350mm case, or just the long PaK40 case.... And do you have any supporting documentation or photos

 

[lc123]

Thanks for the write up..
can you confirm if your belief as to whether the German manufactured ammunition, eg PzGr39 rot and PzGr40 etc were used in the Russian 350mm case, or just the long PaK40 case.... And do you have any supporting documentation or photos

I do believe the Germans had 350mm case domestically manufactured ammunition. It gets very convoluted. But the Germans had a large capacity HE armor piercing round. That is, it is a 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 with a larger HE charge than the later 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 rot projectile used in the fully converted (using Pak 40 'brass') 7,62 cm Pak 39 antitank gun. It is of note that once the Germans modified the gun, and made ammunition for it, they seem to drop the (r) designation. Sort of implying ownership if you will.

The large capacity HE Pzgr 39...note it weighs less than the later small capacity HE 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 (rot) {7.1 Kg vs. 7.6 Kg}



As far as Germans using Pzgr 40, there is evidence of them doing so on a





I believe the Germans used stock Soviet ammunition in the Afrika Corp initially, but used the lower propellant version. This would give a higher muzzle velocity (due to the climate), of course, and early encounters and testing of German weapons by the Allies can lead to confusing data. Generally, German propellant charges are reduced by 6% or so for "Fur Tropen" ammunition.

German documentation of captures Soviet stock 76mm ammunition...



Note the higher propellant charge of 12/7 over 9/7.

Both the 7,62 cm Pak 36 and FK 39 (converted USV) fired ammunition that used the Pak 40 brass. Initially, the propellant was 2.6 Kg but for whatever reason was reduced to 2.45 Kg and documentation from April 1944 shows this. Given the greater weight of the small capacity HE 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 rot projectile, this would also skew the data out there. I am primarily concerned with velocities and armor penetration.

A funny thing is that the Germans invaded the Soviet Union with a mass of tanks that were up against some very capable antitank weapons. The Germans lost many tanks and had to obsolete many more, but the Soviets gifted them many weapons and ammunition to boot. The 7,62 cm Pak 36 was a fearsome weapon and actually enjoyed a period where it had Tungsten Carbide ammunition in some quantities.

Some questions are:

Did the Germans really use Soviet 350mm brass AND Soviet powder and replace the projectile?

How could they manage all those ammunition types? Surely, they must have had separation of gun types and hopefully pulling out weapons as Pak 40 came on line?

Could a stock F-22 take out a T34 from the front using stock ammunition?

 

[lc123]

Thanks for the write up..
can you confirm if your belief as to whether the German manufactured ammunition, eg PzGr39 rot and PzGr40 etc were used in the Russian 350mm case, or just the long PaK40 case.... And do you have any supporting documentation or photos

To answer your question directly...

On the 350mm case (with stock F-22 'long barrel' or USV)
The Germans used 7,62 cm Pzgr 39, not 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 rot. As said above, the former is 7.1 Kg and the latter is 7.6 Kg. The Soviet AP that it replaced weighed less than both. The Germans loaded about 1.3 Kg of German propellant and the overall effect, given the better German projectile, was superior. Some claim that the Germans also used Soviet propellant with German projectiles but I find that hard to believe. Perhaps for HE or other rounds, but the Germans believed in shelf life and they even stipulated for their own ammunition that it sit no more than a year.

The German also used Pzgr 40 with the 350 mm case but it had a velocity of about 880M/s (I can check all this and edit later). Not bad.

Most all Soviet 76mm weapons including T34 and USV guns could also fire this German ammunition. Which raises the question if the Soviets sought it out when they could.

The 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 rot was used in converted (bored out) F-22 guns initially, along with the Pak 40 brass and 2.6 Kg of propellant. In other words, this ammunition was all German parts. Later, the Germans bored out USV guns and they are either called 7,62 cm Pak 39, or FK 39. It also used this same ammunition but had a lower velocity with its shorter barrel. For whatever reason, the Germans decreased the powder weight to 2.45 Kg. The Germans supplied decent quantities of Pzgr 40 for these weapons and it was consumed before the 'ban'.

The Germans produced HEAT for almost every gun with a bore big enough. The 'C' version, the best by far since it was good enough for a frontal T34, was introduced late 1943 and there is data showing it existing alongside 'B' for awhile. People may be amazed at the use of HEAT since it is often remarked as secondary. Pak 40 weapons not only were supplied with it, but consumed it at great rates. As the war went on, and lighter tanks fell out of the scene, it was not used as much. It was relegated to a HE substitute with some AP qualities.

 

[lc123]

Edit: Here is one source regarding the Pzgr 40 velocity

[FONT=&amp]H.Dv.119/117 Vorlaufige Schusstafel for the Soviet FK 296(r) May 1942 gives these MV of projectiles with 1080 grams of Russian 9/7 propellant: Sprenggranatpatrone 284 and Stahlgussgranpatrone 287 of 706 m/s,
while 1943 H.Dv.119/3121 Vorlaufige Geschutzfuhrertafel for the FK 296(r) und Selbstfabrlafette states 713 m/s.
The 1942 figure for the Russian APBC BR 350 is 687 m/s, the 1943 MV for the model BR 350 A is 698 m/s, using the same 1080 grams amount of 9/7 propellant.
No German Pzgr figures given in the 1942 FT.
For 1943: Pzgr Patr 39(r) MV of 660 m/s, Pzgr Patr 39 rot(r) MV of 630 m/s, Pzgr 40(r) of 850 m/s.
[/FONT]

The big question is what exactly is a Pzgr 40 (r)? Also, it seems that both Pzgr Patr 39 (r) and Pzgr Patr 39 rot are used? At 630 M/s, it is not worth it IMO.

Even German documents are not consistent about using the (r) in many cases.

 

[lc123]

The picture is from H.Dv.119/121, just as Nabob suggested. I have made a scan of the other pictures.

I believe the Germans produced hollow charge for nearly any weapon 75-76mm they had. Here is an example...it is a cardboard foldout that is shipped with the ammunition.

 

[pzgr40/42]

I'd like your input on something I spotted.

Look at the following drawing, note how the drivingband has been cut down to allow the round to be used with the Polish "97":

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=133760&d=1496354652

To me this looks awfully similar to the drivingbands on 7,62 PzGr 40's posted at the start of this thread.
Could we have stumbled on something not previously known/unsuspected? Could these PzGr 40's have been converted to increase the punch of (worn?) "97" barrels?
(I use "97" to describe the Polish fieldguns, based on the French type soixantequinze, used as Beute by the Germans as I don't know their correct designation)

greetz!