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WW1 37mm Knowledge required !!

A

ammofo

Well-Known Member
Hello all...
I've recently acquired two very interesting rounds which I believe are for the WW1 Vickers 1 Pounder Mark III (37x69R) which was an experimental cut down version of the pom-pom gun designed to be mounted on RFC aircraft. The few images I can find show these rounds to be flat topped due to the no.131 fuse used to explode on impact with fabrics (ie Zeppelins and canvas planes). The projectiles on my rounds however are hollow with a screw off base, and have two sideways projecting holes in that base - presumably for emitting a trail of its ignited contents. So what do you think...??? Are they tracers for this weapon ?? Here's a picture of one next to a French 37mm Hotchkiss pom-pom...

PS - I hope it has attached the photo this time - apologies if not !!
 

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Dual rotating bands do not indicate standard Crayford. Would like to see projectile base and unscrewed base. Twin bands usually found on French projectiles, might be a French copy which would be unique.
 
highlandotter said:
Dual rotating bands do not indicate standard Crayford. Would like to see projectile base and unscrewed base. Twin bands usually found on French projectiles, might be a French copy which would be unique.
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You're on to something with French as I've just cleaned off some of the rust on the projectile base and there's a flaming bomb symbol. I'm thinking maybe mismatched case and projectile, or collaborative project re arming planes with cannons which apparently the French were ahead of us in this respect. Cases are definitely British (VSM) though no mention of "1 Pdr Mark III" as I've seen with other images on the web. Measurements are definitely 37x69, so can't think of any other possibilities.

Base plug won't screw off without clamping it in a vice, and I don't really want to gnarl it up as it's in pretty good condition.

ALSO - Could these projectiles be older than WW1 as I don't recognise them compared to other variations I've seen. The drive bands are very chunky. Other projectile markings are "an anchor, HS 6, J, 117 and 133" and on the other one "HS 22, anchor, 155, and 15"

Be interested to see what you think
Cheers
Jon
 

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Your projectile looks like a Crayford, especially the base which looks like the incendiary projectile. But the bands are different and thicker, plus being dual. The point is blunter ,too. I have 4 different Crayfords, and yours doesn't match any. The rim diameter for the Vickers 37x69 is 44mm, and for the Crayford 40x79 is 47mm. My best guess that your round is a French experimental they were trying out for their aircraft. if so, it is quite rare.
 
The rim is 44mm (which I checked earlier today) which obviously ties in with the Vickers 1 Pdr Mark III.
As for the 'French connection', I imagine this would be almost impossible to prove as such a collaboration would be highly secretive - as would have been the development of the prototype E.F.B.7 aircraft that was meant to carry this newly developed gun for the Brits.
You say that the projectile base looks like a 'Crayford' incendiary type, but I'm struggling to get my head around the logistics of who supplied what to who and how various components may have gone back and forth in the middle of the war. Any thoughts anybody?
 
image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg
Hi ammofo,
I think yours is a loading for a 1pdr mk1 aircraft round,not mk3.which makes it quite rare.I only know of 4,including this one.
yours is a slightly different variant from others I've seen as has a blunter nose to projectile,but the base looks the same.
An incendiary type very similar to the 1.59 Crayford.
Heres some pics of mine,along side a mk3 & sectioned mk3.
Note the mk1 case headstamp.
Tim.
 

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Hi Tim and thanks for this fantastic contribution. They are almost identical - even down to some of the stamping, but have you ever wondered what the French 'flaming bomb' and dual drive bands are all about? You clearly know more about these than I do, (and your examples are stunning by the way!!) but this whole saga has got me scratching my head. Do you know the back story to these rounds at all? You've certainly given me another avenue to follow...
 
I just thought of my 37mm COW rounds, they have grooved double bands just like the French, and the French made examples of them. But have never seen COW projectiles with the flame holes like the Crayford .I looks like some sore of co operation in experimental design between the 2 countries. Hope more info turns up, as this is very interesting.
 
Hi ammofo,
Thanks for nice comments on my examples.
I don't know much more about these,but others on this forum no doubt will.
As to the drive bands,remember the 37mm COW gun rounds have the same type of bands.
Tim.
 
I've just been on a Vickers machine gun site where it references other 'ordnance marks' being added when the intended customer carried out their own inspections, and it's clear that neither of my rounds have a single 'broad arrow' anywhere. It all points to VSM making them for the French. The incendiary round factor would certainly be a natural approach to attacking Zeppelins. So these rounds would appear to be legitimate, and highly sought after !!
 
If you ever want to sell your duplicate, I would gladly take it off your hands!! If you find any more info on them, please post. Thanks, the Otter
 
Hello,

French made and used these 37mm incendiary-tracer during ww1 (so we can find flame or anchor marked on the body).
These shells are modified 37mm AP 1892.
Not very common.

Regards

37MM INCENDIARY TRACER FRENCH WW1.jpg
 
I will definitely keep this post alive until we can find as much info as possible, as this will prove a good resource for others who might need it in the future. Digging for info is great, but it's always nice to find it straight away !!
As for my 'spare' round, I have already promised first refusal to another collector, and two other have since joined the queue, but I will certainly let you know if they change their minds or I'm lucky enough to encounter any more in the future (which I doubt if I'm honest).
Thanks again for your contributions so far, and it would be great to hear if you have any further info.
Cheers
Jon
 
Thanks for this input MINENAZ16, it could therefore be possible that the French may have supplied these modified incendiary projectiles for the British as part of their experiments with the shorter 69mm cases. If this was the case, I would have expected some 'broad arrows' on the case at least, but there aren't any. Either way, they have got everybody rallying round for answers and this is all very much appreciated.
Cheers
Jon
 
ammofo said:
Thanks for this input MINENAZ16, it could therefore be possible that the French may have supplied these modified incendiary projectiles for the British as part of their experiments with the shorter 69mm cases. If this was the case, I would have expected some 'broad arrows' on the case at least, but there aren't any. Either way, they have got everybody rallying round for answers and this is all very much appreciated.
Cheers
Jon
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Playing Devils advocate, is it not also possible that its a mismatched round? French projectile in a British case?
 
Quatermass said:
Playing Devils advocate, is it not also possible that its a mismatched round? French projectile in a British case?
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That was my initial concern, but given that another collector (mach1bang) has provided photos earlier in the thread of exactly the same mismatch, plus all the other stuff I've read etc, I'm happy that these are a match - even if it's a strange one. It's a point I raised right at the top of the thread !!
 
Quatermass said:
Playing Devils advocate, is it not also possible that its a mismatched round? French projectile in a British case?
Click to expand...

Always possible Q but I have found three of these now which have all been in a Mk I case. Two of these were heavily crimped into the case, although had been inerted. I believe the Mk I cases were originally the standard length case modified to this length with screw primer. All were dated 1915 whereas all of the Mk III cases I can remember seeing have been dated 1916.

D
 
Burney Davis said:
Always possible Q but I have found three of these now which have all been in a Mk I case. Two of these were heavily crimped into the case, although had been inerted. I believe the Mk I cases were originally the standard length case modified to this length with screw primer. All were dated 1915 whereas all of the Mk III cases I can remember seeing have been dated 1916.

D
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Thanks for kindly wading into the debate !!
When you talk of your three rounds being in a Mk I case, are you referring to a typical pom-pom shell casing? It's just that earlier in the thread there was a reference to mine being a Mk I shell, but the dimensions (37x69) are spot on for the Mk III.

If yours are 'modified' to the shorter length, is there a way to tell between a modified MK I and a purpose made MK III. Mine do not say MK III on them which could suggest modification and are dated 9/15 and 2/16. They also have No.5.I on the primers - do yours ? ...and is this just to identify the primer itself?

The nearer I get to finding answers, the more questions it raises !!
 
The blunt example was a modified French M92 penetrating projectile. The only reason to alter
the length would be to fit the shorter feed slot in the light Maxim (and bring the weight in line with the other short projectiles). Maxim guns need close tolerances in the length of ammunition.
Too long and the round won't feed in, too short and you run the chance of it being to far forward and not being picked up by the
breech block (even with a spring to position it) So we might be dealing with projectiles for two guns - the blunted ones are for the short
MKlll cases and light Maxim, the original length projectiles for any of the single shot type guns in use or trials (regular Maxim or Revolving Cannon
and so on). The blunted projectile needs to be measured beside the other types for the light Maxim. It would also be helpful if one of these
Maxims still exists to know the length of the feed slot in the feed block. That would perhaps rule out the unmodified projectile in the short case for that gun. I do not have a listing for this round in any French sources for the guns mounted in the Spad, and perhaps it was tried out or used briefly
1915-16 but was replaced by the larger incendiary D shell in French service, (which of course would never fit the Maxim).
In British service perhaps the Phosphorus filled incendiary was adopted or trial'd instead. The idea is certainly in practice identical to the 40mm Crayford and the modified French M92s have had the base plug cut back and no fuze was fitted as the flame holes were the ignition point also.
So a few side by side images would help clear this up and does any one know where a surviving Maxim is ?

MINENAZ 16, do you have any references to these being used or do they just turn up now and again.
 
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