7,5 cm Vickers or Schneider?

[Hoeksel]

The Dutch had a Vickers Armstrong M1931 AA gun as standard heavy AA artillery before 1940. The case belonging to this gun is a 75x490R102 case. They exist to my knowledge as a brass Dutch manufactured case (Hembrug), a brass German made case 7,5cm H36 and a steel German made case. Early Dutch cases came with the gun and are marked 7,5tl (meaning "tegen luchtdoelen" = AA) and made by VAEL (1934/1935).

I have a yet unknown Danish case 75x561R102. It completely resembles the Dutch Vickers Armstrong M1931 case (rim diameter, rim thickness, case shape) expect that it is longer. Recently, I have seen 2 Romanian 75x561R102 cases that resemble the Danish case in my collection.

So I started wondering, did the Danish/Romanians use a longer case for the Vickers Armstron M1931 gun they had in service? If not, there should be a 75x490R102 case used by Denmark/Romania but I have never seen it.

To make it more confusing, the Swiss 7,5 cm Flab M1938 also uses a 75x561R102 cases that resemble again the Danish/Romanian case. The Swiss Flab M1938 however is a Schneider design.

I would be interested in additional information to verify the gun used with the Danish/Romanian 75x561R102 cases and I would love to see additional head stamps for either of the 75x490R102 and 75x561R102 cases.

On the image from left to right a Dutch 75x490R102 VA case dated 1938, a Swiss 75x561R102 Flab M1938 dated 1941 and a Danish unknown 75x561R102 case dated 1936.

 

[Hoeksel]

Small edit: 7,5cm tl made by VAEL are known dated 1935 and 1937 (thanks Greif). My case is dated 1935. Hembrug made cases existing with/without WaA and I know of the dates 1936-1941. German made brass cases are French made (GUO) and as far as I have seen all 1942. Steel cases I have seen only a few, my case is from 1942.

 

[greif]

Slight correction: French production under German supervision (kct). Dutch production under German supervision (guo) 41 and 42.

 

[Hoeksel]

I am getting sloppy (believing I remember everything by heart and do not mix up), of course you are correct.

 

[fert]

Hello,
I have in my archive a steel made by asb with navy waa.



I hope someone can solve the mistery of the long case....

regards

 

[ydnum303]

Hi all,
I have this case, 75 x 560R101, with the headstamp 75M/M at 12 o'c, VA at 3 o'c, 1938 at 6o'c and LOT (with no number!) at 9 o'c. The primer is in the style of the British No.1, but is marked Md 36-75-94 VAD-7-1937. One of our knowledgeable members has told me that it was for Romania, presumably a contract by Vickers.

However, I can find very little information on this round, and not much about the gun that fired it. An article on the internet states that the gun was offered to the War Office by Vickers, but was turned down initially. It then goes on to state that, according to a book by Terry Gander, during WW2 we did use it. Does anyone have any further information about this round and/or its use by Britain?

And finally, does anyone know where I can get a correct projectile for it, please?

Thanks in advance,
Roger.

 

[Defender]

The Danes called their case "75 mm Patronhylster M.1933". In Danish documents the case lenght is given with "ca. 561 mm". That's why no danish 75x490R comes up.
The Danes used Dixi-design fuzes with their 75 mm AA-shells. Maybe another hint for a danish/swiss connection here ....

@Hoeksel:
Let us see the headstamp of your Danish 75x561R102 please.

 

[Tony Williams]

However, I can find very little information on this round, and not much about the gun that fired it.

Roger, I have a "WW2 Fact File" on AA guns written by Chamberlain and Gander. It has this to say about Vickers 75mm guns:

"During the 1920s the British Vickers-Armstrong firm produced a 75 mm anti-aircraft gun. The gun was not accepted by the War Office and was offered for sale elsewhere. It was quite an export success for it was sold to Holland, Belgium, Lithuania (from whence it entered the Russian armoury after 1939), China, Portugal, Romania and Turkey. Denmark licence-built the gun as the Model 32, but most other guns were known as the Model 31 or M.31. The Dutch guns were known as the M.35. As a design, the Vickers was conventional but rather ahead of its time as it featured trunnions behind the breech and a folding cruciform platform that could be carried on two wheels. Like all Vickers guns it was sturdy and durable so the Germans were able to take over some after 1940. Most of these were Dutch and they then became the 7,5 cm Flak Vickers M.35 (h). Danish guns became the 7,5 cm Flak (d)."

The data on the gun include a calibre length of L/43, weight (travelling) 3325 kg, (in action) 2825 kg, shell weight 6.5 kg, MV 750-850 m/s, max ceiling 10,000 m.

I does not surprise me that there was some variation in the case length (and, it seems, muzzle velocity) to meet the requirements of the various countries which used it. As the case was straight rather than bottlenecked, this would not have been much of a problem. In this regard, it might have been similar to the widely-used 47mm Böhler anti-tank gun, with ammo made in various case lengths for different countries.

 

[Hoeksel]

@Defender: here is the image of the headstamp.

@Tony: that is indeed my thoughts as well. I will also check by Belgium 75mm cases if I find any with clear resemblance later. The case with 490mm length like the Dutch one does not exist with Blegium headstamps.

 

[Hoeksel]

As I have no documentation on Danish large caliber material (> 20 mm) I wondered if you can share where your information is from. Is there literature available for download or sale about the subject?

 

[Hoeksel]

Belgium had 2 types of 75mm AA guns:

M1927 with cases measuring 75x543R112 (necked)
M1936 with cases measuring 75x453R85 (straight)

Based on my knowledge there exist no Belgium stamped 75x490R102 or 75x561R102 cases, nor am I aware of a Belgium stamped case that could fit the 75 mm M1931 Vickers-Armstrong gun.

 

[Defender]

The complete Danish designation of the gun is "75 mm 49 Kaliber lang Luftværnskanon M.1932 (75 mm L/49 L.K. M.1932)".

A little trip into it's history by documents of the Danish Army Materiel Command:
1929 - trials with 75 mm AA-guns on 4-arm field mounts from Schneider, Vickers and Bofors
1930 - further intensive trials with the Vickers gun only
1931 - end of the trials and contract with Vickers about one battery (4 guns + add. equipment) and deliverance of further guns in parts for assembling in Denmark
1932 - handover of the first battery
1934 - new contract with Vickers about a further series of guns
1937 - assembling of this further guns in Denmark and placing an order for some more
1940 - Denmark occupied; handover of 24 Vickers guns plus the ammunition and add. equipment to the Germans
These 24 pieces should be the complete stock of Danish 75 mm Vickers, because there is no proof of a further use in Danish service after the handover (the Danish Army exists more or less intact until 1943).
But the story doesn't end here:
1943 - among others the Germans handover 24 pieces "7,5 cm Flak Vickers (d)" with ca. 14400 rounds to Italy (JB Anderhub shows a facsimile document about this in his book "Die Patrone 20x138B").
Of the further fate of the Danish Vickers guns I have no information. Fert maybe can dig a little deeper and help out.

 

[Defender]

As I have no documentation on Danish large caliber material (> 20 mm) I wondered if you can share where your information is from. Is there literature available for download or sale about the subject?

You're right. There is not much useful information of Danish stuff around. No books (of international format) or downloads. Some Danish museums published small books for local sale in Denmark.
For SAA this is a good and nearly complete reference -> https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/timeline/_ad_patroner_list.php

Studying Danish ammunition is my favourite field of interest. So I've picked up every single sheet of documents, manuals etc. since years to get valuable information. A lot of visits in Denmark and some good contacts there helped very much.

 

[ydnum303]

Tony,
Thanks for your input on this; - very interesting and helpful. Do you know if Gander & Chamberlain's assertion that we used some of these guns in WW2 is true?

And can anyone show a picture of the projectile(s) that were used, please?

Roger.

 

[Hoeksel]

Here examples of Dutch 7,5 cm Vickers rounds.

Image 1: 7,5 cm practice HE
Image 2: 7,5 cm HE

 

[Tony Williams]

Tony,
Thanks for your input on this; - very interesting and helpful. Do you know if Gander & Chamberlain's assertion that we used some of these guns in WW2 is true?

Sorry Roger, I'm away from my sources at the moment. I do have a history of the RA in WW2 at home, possibly there is something in that. I'll look later.

 

[Krt7.92]

@Hoeksel: the Belgian M36 case should be 516mm long.
I've also got a M36 case, 448mm long, but it's clearly been cut off. If yours is 453mm long, I'm wondering if this is coincidence?

 

[Hoeksel]

You are right and I am as well, meaning that a 453mm long case is documented. But the standard case, like I have them, are indeed 516mm long. Still, based on the rim diameter they would not fit in the Vickers Armstrong gun.

 

[Tony Williams]

Do you know if Gander & Chamberlain's assertion that we used some of these guns in WW2 is true?

I have checked all of the relevant books I have and none of them even mention the 75mm in a British context, so my answer is "probably not".

 

[Hoeksel]

In addition, I also have found no proof of Britisch use.