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6.5x50 ID

917601

Well-Known Member
I found these singles in a lot. Both types are cupro nickel round nose. I presume they are Jap 6.5x50. The 4 on the left have no head stamp , just two " stakes" on the primer.Would they be historically correct to display with a WW2 era Jap rifle? My friend's " museum" has a WW2 era 6.5 Jap rifle and he would love to have a few cartridges to display with the rifle.

The three on the right I suspect are Brit manufacture, no staking on primers.

...and for the Bren enthusiasts, my son and I had a great time shooting our Bren MK 1, ( converted to semi-automatic).The recoil was amazingly light and a real pleasure to shoot.
 

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Your headstamped rounds are indeed British and are made by Kynoch in 1917. Their British designation is .256" Ball Mk II. These were largely made on contract for Russia however they were also used by the Royal Navy as a training rifle.
Your unmarked cartridges have got me confused I'm afraid. They are definitely Japanese and the roundnose bullet makes them Type 30 Ball rounds however this doesn't quite tie in with the two primer stakes as this method of securing the primer wasn't adopted until much later and after the adoption of the Type 38 spritzer bullet in 1905. I suspect someone has loaded the earlier Type 30 bullets into later Type 38 cases. I'm not suggesting that these aren't genuine loads, the Japanese did all sorts of things like this when they started to run short of ammunition, but I am saying the bullet type doesn't match the case.
Would they be historically correct to display with a WW2 era Jap rifle?......I'd have to say no, they're not historically correct.
Jim
 
Thank you for a response. Googling with your feedback found reference to Ball, MK II, .256, Nov 1915,....stated the contract was filled for Russian type 30 in round nosed ammo, but no mention of primer stabs. As these came from a long time cartridge collectors estate, ( all rounds where in one box) I would suspect they date to the Kynoch rounds (1917). Upon close examination,( magnifier) I found a hairline crack at the necks and noticeable corrosion leading to conclude they have not been tampered with. Possible they are WW1 contract ammo?.....or, one collector website mentions " round nose" ammo was used in the Type 97 sniper rifle, but no examples. .???
 
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Perhaps I've confused you a little with my reply....the rounds with the headstamps are perfectly genuine and as they should be. These are the British .256" Ball Mk II rounds.
The rounds which are 'dubious' are those without any headstamp and with the two primer stakes. These are Japanese and not British. The point I'm trying to make is that by the time primer staking was introduced Japan had changed from the roundnosed Type 30 cartridge to the spiter Type 38. Therefore these cartridges with their two primer stakes have the wrong type of bullet - they should be loaded with Type 38 spritzer bullets.
Jim
 
On a side note, I do have a box of Norma 6.5 Jap " Olympic " Match Grade reloadable ammo. One collector emailed me saying it was rather rare, offered for a year or two, reloadable, and loaded to be extremely accurate with very little recoil.
 

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Perhaps I've confused you a little with my reply....the rounds with the headstamps are perfectly genuine and as they should be. These are the British .256" Ball Mk II rounds.
The rounds which are 'dubious' are those without any headstamp and with the two primer stakes. These are Japanese and not British. The point I'm trying to make is that by the time primer staking was introduced Japan had changed from the roundnosed Type 30 cartridge to the spiter Type 38. Therefore these cartridges with their two primer stakes have the wrong type of bullet - they should be loaded with Type 38 spritzer bullets.
Jim
Could these be the Jap Type 97 sniper 6.5 round nosed ammo that a website mentions?
 
I'm really not sure what 'sniper round' in particular they are referring to. Perhaps it would help if you could provide a link to the relevant entry on the website....?
Japan produced only three types of 6.5mm cartridge; The roundnose Type 30, the spitzer Type 38, and a Type 38 with a slightly reduced charge for use in LMG's. There was no 6.5mm cartridge specifically for snipers.
Jim
 
Jim,
In the world of the Internet, I am unable to seperate fact and fiction. Here is one reference, "Subsequent use indicated that the higher pressures generated by the standard rifle ammunition caused parts wear and breakage in machine guns. It was thus decided to reduce the powder charge of Type 11 6.5 mm ammunition to overcome the problem. This reduced charge 6.5 mm ammunition can be identified by a letter "G" in a circle stamped on the outside of the ammunition packaging which stands for the first letter of genso - the Japanese word for "reduced." This special ammunition was also issued to soldiers carrying the Type 96 Light Machine Gun introduced in 1936 and to snipers issued the Type 97 Sniper Rifle, introduced in 1937. The advantage of the reduced charge ammunition to the sniper was it aided in his concealment as the reduced charge rounds produced less muzzle flash than standard rounds and thus did not give away the sniper's position."

[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Misc/6_5x50%20Japanese.htm

No other ideas as I can not find any pictures of these reduced powder mentioned rounds. I did read on another site a British company other than Kynoch supplied Russia (1916-17) with " 2 stab" primer 6.5 ( they stated it was requested by Russia and the contract was never fully filled) but it did not say if there were any headstamps on those or have any pictures. I now believe these are WW1 as these seven rounds ( Kynoch 1917 with copper color primers and these 2 stab with brass color primers) were in a box together. Also in the lot and seperatly boxed were US RA 1917 rounds, and a few WW1 dated Carcano( B-18)....most likely a WW1 cartridge collection.
 
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Found this, " In November 1915 Russia requested a supply of 6.5mm Arisaka ammunition for the large number of rifles they had purchased from Japan. The request was for 45 million rounds per month and was for the older Type 30 round nosed ammunition, presumably because the Japanese had supplied the older Type 30 rifle they no longer needed themselves.

Britain promised 15 million rounds in March 1916, 25 million in April and 45 million per month thereafter. In the event, supplies never quite reached that level but a total of 558,947,000 rounds were eventually made, the highest production being just over 48 million rounds in March 1917."

https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-256-inch-arisaka/-256-inch-arisaka-ball

A few pics on the site, including 2 stab primers. Mystery solved?
 
The photo of the two staked primer in Tony Edwards site is of Japanese manufactured type 38 ammunition,which as Jim says is correct,and was supplied to the UK alongside Arisaka rifles.
Japanese Type 30 ammunition was not staked,again as Jim has stated,possibly the confusion is coming from the fact that UK manfactured Arisaka ammunition is the opposite of Japanese ammunition,ie MKI had pointed bullets and MKII had the round nosed bullet(because we moved on the earlier Japanese rifles to Russia so had to manufacture earlier round nosed ammunition to suit)
I can find no mention of type 97 6.5mm ammunition in Ken Elks 'Japanese ammunition 1880-1945' books,and to be honest if it isn't in his books it 'didn't happen'
 
Ken's book does refer to a 6.5mm "High Accuracy Ball" (see page 40):

"Japanese documents also refer to a high accuracy ball round for use with the Type 97 sniper's rifle. No authenticated round of this type has been encountered but it is said to have used a round-nosed bullet and a special low-flash powder, made by adding potassium sulphate."

He also discusses on page 41 the "reduced charge" 6.5mm ammo which has been claimed to be developed for the Type 3 and Type 11 machine guns. Ken is sceptical about this, stating that although ammo boxes specifically marked for the Type 3 or Type 11 do exist, there is no difference from standard ball in the ammo examined from a Type 11 box (I know that Ken pulled some rounds apart to compare propellant loads). He also says "no Japanese documents have been found which support the notion of reduced charge cartridges for these weapons".
 
Interesting, so where does all this info lead me? My conclusions, ( please comment if there are other possibilities)- 1) round nose Type 30 bullets were at some time loaded into the Jap two stab crimped brass colored primed cases. I discount this because of the condition of the rounds. 2) The rounds were contract made for Russia (1916-1917) who requested type 30 projectiles,( and one site states they had the 2 stab crimped primers), however, it appears that contract ammo had copper colored primers, these do not. 3) could they be Russian manufacture ( or Brit manufacture) with Jap components. 4) they are Jap " hi- accuracy ball"...(like the modern day Norma Olympic rounds I pictured). No further ideas, and with no experience in cartridge collecting I simply do not know. Dead end?...I tend to think number two....anyway, didn't anyone like the resurrected Bren?....it had a few light strikes on the primers, no ignition, ( but it shot 3 inch groups at 100 yards- with surplus Greek HXP .303 70's dated ammo, somewhat amazing). ...troubleshooting that for the time being.....
 
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I think this has become complicated because there are two very different cartridges being discussed in the same thread. The headstamped cartridges are without any doubt made in the UK in 1917 by Kynoch and were intended for export to Russia. However, not all went to Russia and some were retained in the UK for training use, some also went to the Royal Navy. These were designated .256" Ball Mk II in British service.
I'm not sure about the other 'unmarked' rounds but it is still my belief that the roundnose Type 30 bullets are not original to the cases.....but, if they are original its a very interesting cartridge!
I think it would be worthwhile posting this question on the IAA forum.
Jim
 
For historical reasons we have here in Finland lot of pre 1918 Arisaka weapons and ammo.
Japanese cartridges:
-Type 30 rounds had a round nose bullet, no headstamps, primer without crimping or 2 crimps.
-Type 38 rounds had a pointed bullet, no headstamps, primer as above.
British cartridges:
-All British cartridges has 3 dots on neck, Japanese did not have it.
-Kings Norton Metal Co. purchased components from Japan and loaded them in UK. With pointed bullet. No headstamp.
-Kynoch headstamps exist: K16 II, K17 II and K16. Round nose bullet.
-Royal Laboratory, Woolwich loaded with round nose bullets. No headstamps.

Kynoch developed an own round nose bullet, with groove on aft part. Japanese style round nose bullets were made as well.

British used 2 different sizes of primers.
 
Tmine, that's great information nicely presented, thank you! That would suggest that the cartridges discussed could possibly be of Finnish origin, an option I hadn't considered.
Jim
 
I wonder how many other countries made 6.5mm Arisaka ammunition? I know that Switzerland did, as I have a Solothurn round in my collection.
 
Tony, Switzerland is a new one on me, what is the headstamp on your cartridge? I've got several Chinese examples and a quick check of Municion.org shows that Czechoslovakia also made this calibre. Again, news to me.
Jim
 
I have no idea. I saw this at a show a couple of years or so ago, and picked it up because it seemed so unusual. I only associate it with Solothurn because that's what the vendor told me.
 
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