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  1. #1
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    Experimental firing device / pyrotechnics igniter

    Hallo,
    I intend to offer the pictured experimental igniter for sale on Egun. I was thinking of offering it also for international sale. As you can see it is a very early experimental item with the designation PPF-E-7. This igniter was developed for pyrotechnic ground flares used for perimeter defence as an alarm. It has no percussion cap, so it is completely inert. As you can see, the patent for this item has been applied for in 1991. The other 2 fotos are copies of the userleaflet for the ground-flare. Here, dated 1995, the device has recieved a DM number, namely DM 1474. I do not know if this device has ever been a general issue item or if was used only in testing. My question is: Can this be offered legally for sale in UK and USA ? It is completely inert, but absolutely original and in a new condition in its original packing. Thanking you in advance, I remain with kind regards,
    Bellifortis.Piepenbrock Auslösevorrichtung 003 (565x800).jpgPiepenbrock Auslösevorrichtung 005 (570x800).jpgPiepenbrock Auslösevorrichtung 004 (800x561).jpg

  2. #2
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    Have you got some more details of the base of the unit where it attaches to the flare please?
    There is a possibility that it may be captured under GB Firearms legislation if it can fire (without conversion) a small arms round.
    Similar in concept to the military version of the pen type launcher for the mini flare kits in GB which are captured in law as a firearm.
    any live or dug ordnance. small arms ammunition etc in my posts have been dealt with accordingly

  3. #3
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    Thank you for your answer. The brassbarrel of the device, with the springdriven centerfire firingpin, is threaded inside. It's approximately 9,5mm in dia. You can not fire anything else with this device. It is especially made to screw onto the capholders of pyrotechnic ground flares. These flares have standardised threaded capholders and you find a few different devices from different manufacturers. The defunct company DN produced a very nice device like this, that could be easily recocked and so reused many times in training. The problem with the pens I know about. Here in Germany any penlike device is prohibited if it does not carry a PTB stamp. Like the HK 19mm flarelauncher for aircrew emergency use. For military use it has no PTB stamp and falls under german firearms law. The absolutely same item, but with the PTB stamp is free for everybody from age 18 onwards.
    regards,
    Bellifortis.

  4. #4
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    Hallo Exat,
    attached is a foto of an old DN display of their model of the recockable device I mentioned in my last post. Here you can see how it is attached to the flare. This is a standardised threading.
    Greetings,
    Bellifortis.
    Quote Originally Posted by exat808 View Post
    Have you got some more details of the base of the unit where it attaches to the flare please?
    There is a possibility that it may be captured under GB Firearms legislation if it can fire (without conversion) a small arms round.
    Similar in concept to the military version of the pen type launcher for the mini flare kits in GB which are captured in law as a firearm.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
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    Thank you Bellifortis,
    I will post some detailed pictures of the GB device soon. Perhaps we can compare the 2 devices?
    Regards,
    exat808
    any live or dug ordnance. small arms ammunition etc in my posts have been dealt with accordingly

  6. #6
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    Hi
    The attached document explains why a device that can be screwed onto a flare or other article containing a percussion cap might be treated as a Firearm in GB.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    any live or dug ordnance. small arms ammunition etc in my posts have been dealt with accordingly

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to exat808 For This Useful Post:

    Bellifortis (3rd January 2017), Bonnex (17th October 2016)

  8. #7
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    Hallo exat808,
    sorry for answering that late, but I only saw your posting today. Thank you for your explanatory answer. But, I still do not understand british legal understanding. The first yellow pen, pictured in your post, was most probably manufactured in germany. I know the exact same model, but orange coloured, as a german export model for 16,5mm flares manufactured by Feistel. These all have a central firing pin. The offset firing pin, for rimfire blanks, is here in D mostly used in civilian products. Up until about 2 years ago, all german, civilian 15mm flare-launching-pens had a female threading with an offset firing pin for standard 6mm blanks. According to your above posted british legal definition, the fast majority of german, legal CIVILIAN flare-projectors would fall under the british firearms act. It seems, that every country in europe, has different legal definitions. The flares were just aluminum or plastic containers with a male threading on the bottom and a standard 15mm pressed star inside. The empty flare container had to be unscrewed after use and was to be discarded. But, many boys, with small pocket money, reloaded these with very cheap 6mm Flobert blanks and 15mm stars that are freely sold in germany since decades. If I understand your posting right, the difference between legal and not legal is only that, if the item is used by the military it is NOT legal and does not depend on any real technical, constructive difference. Attached are 2 pages from the export catalog of the defunct company Feistel Pyrotechnics. The first page shows 2 flarepens. 1 is for export, the other for civilian use in germany. As I mentioned before, civilian launchers in D need to have a PTB No. stamped on (german technical, legal registration) If an absolutely identical item has no PTB No. stamped on, it falls under the german firearms act. The other page shows particulars of the 2-way flareigniter that I have been asking about originaly. This for shure is a sole military use item, but in no way a firearm. It is a mechanical, tripwire flare-igniter, centerfire with a female threading and may be called a "pistol" in british usage. Does british legal definition, even if this is in no way a firearm, make this item fall under the british firearms act ?
    Thanking you for your kind consideration and wishing you all a good year 2017, I remain, yours
    Bellifortis.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bellifortis; 3rd January 2017 at 03:02 PM.

  9. #8
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    Hallo signal-projector buffs,
    relating to the above discussion I show you another page from the aforementioned german export catalog. It shows the Heckler & Koch 5-shot flare-projector, which was developed for the emergency packet of downed military pilots and also issued in germany for this use. This item, without PTB stamp is illegal in germany without a firearms licence. The exact same item was afterwards also sold, on the civilian market, with a PTB stamp. This is legal in D. This launcher is still considered to be the Best (shooting height and luminious intensity) of all the models that have appeared on the market up till now. Meanwhile, the ammunition is not produced anymore,IMG_0053.jpg it has become very hard to find the ammunition for these. They have become a collectors item and sell in auctions for more than 10 euros a piece. The H & K launcher also is quite dear and has always sold for more than 180 Euros. My question now is : How are these items ( launcher and ammunition ) considered legaly in GB and the US ? A firearm, even if it has no barrel ?
    Greetings,
    Bellifortis.

  10. #9
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    GB Firearms Law is a very complex area (even for those who work with it regularly).
    I have copied and pasted below an extract from the current Home Office Guidance on Firearms Law -

    Signalling apparatus
    13.65 Signalling apparatus may include flare pistols of up to one-and-a-half inch (37mm) calibre,
    and pen-type launchers for distress flares, as well as bird scaring apparatus used at
    airports or for agricultural bird scaring, where use of a conventional shotgun would be
    inappropriate. Permission to possess such items is normally granted to ships’ masters as
    part of ships’ equipment, to small boat owners, to harbour or airport employees, farms/
    estate managers (bird scaring) or to members of mountain rescue teams. Deerstalkers,
    wildfowlers or hill walkers who operate in isolated areas may also need to seek authority to
    carry some form of distress flare.
    13.66 Flares of a kind that use a male spigot launcher are not subject to controls and are
    commonly used by mariners, hill walkers and others. Likewise, gas powered ‘guns’
    and blank firing guns used by farmers to scare birds from crops are not subject to
    certification, and controlled firearms are not generally needed for this purpose. However,
    the ammunition for such bird scaring equipment is usually a single projectile, and is thus
    subject to certification. Line-throwing rockets (and their launchers/projectors) and similar
    devices for throwing ropes to ships in distress are not generally considered to be “firearms”
    for certification purposes.

    In many circumstances, unique and unusual weapon types have had to be subject of a legal decision in court to determine if they do or do not require a certificate for lawful possession.

    The H&K Launcher is new to me. Have you more information on the internal action please? Perhaps a diagram or sketch of the action?
    Kind regards and Happy New Year to all.
    any live or dug ordnance. small arms ammunition etc in my posts have been dealt with accordingly

  11. #10
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    I think the flare round used in the H&K EFL launcher is similar in principle to the spigot type mini flare.

    The difference is that the H&K round is fed from the magazine and once fired, the spigot part is ejected out of the top of the launcher as the next round is pushed up by the magazine follower.

    I don't have a drawing, and it is a long time since I have seen one.

 

 
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