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Experimental firing device / pyrotechnics igniter

Bellifortis

Well-Known Member
Hallo,
I intend to offer the pictured experimental igniter for sale on Egun. I was thinking of offering it also for international sale. As you can see it is a very early experimental item with the designation PPF-E-7. This igniter was developed for pyrotechnic ground flares used for perimeter defence as an alarm. It has no percussion cap, so it is completely inert. As you can see, the patent for this item has been applied for in 1991. The other 2 fotos are copies of the userleaflet for the ground-flare. Here, dated 1995, the device has recieved a DM number, namely DM 1474. I do not know if this device has ever been a general issue item or if was used only in testing. My question is: Can this be offered legally for sale in UK and USA ? It is completely inert, but absolutely original and in a new condition in its original packing. Thanking you in advance, I remain with kind regards,
Bellifortis.Piepenbrock Auslösevorrichtung 003 (565x800).jpgPiepenbrock Auslösevorrichtung 005 (570x800).jpgPiepenbrock Auslösevorrichtung 004 (800x561).jpg
 
Have you got some more details of the base of the unit where it attaches to the flare please?
There is a possibility that it may be captured under GB Firearms legislation if it can fire (without conversion) a small arms round.
Similar in concept to the military version of the pen type launcher for the mini flare kits in GB which are captured in law as a firearm.
 
Thank you for your answer. The brassbarrel of the device, with the springdriven centerfire firingpin, is threaded inside. It's approximately 9,5mm in dia. You can not fire anything else with this device. It is especially made to screw onto the capholders of pyrotechnic ground flares. These flares have standardised threaded capholders and you find a few different devices from different manufacturers. The defunct company DN produced a very nice device like this, that could be easily recocked and so reused many times in training. The problem with the pens I know about. Here in Germany any penlike device is prohibited if it does not carry a PTB stamp. Like the HK 19mm flarelauncher for aircrew emergency use. For military use it has no PTB stamp and falls under german firearms law. The absolutely same item, but with the PTB stamp is free for everybody from age 18 onwards.
regards,
Bellifortis.
 
Hallo Exat,
attached is a foto of an old DN display of their model of the recockable device I mentioned in my last post. Here you can see how it is attached to the flare. This is a standardised threading.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
Have you got some more details of the base of the unit where it attaches to the flare please?
There is a possibility that it may be captured under GB Firearms legislation if it can fire (without conversion) a small arms round.
Similar in concept to the military version of the pen type launcher for the mini flare kits in GB which are captured in law as a firearm.
 

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Thank you Bellifortis,
I will post some detailed pictures of the GB device soon. Perhaps we can compare the 2 devices?
Regards,
exat808
 
Hi
The attached document explains why a device that can be screwed onto a flare or other article containing a percussion cap might be treated as a Firearm in GB.
 

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Hallo exat808,
sorry for answering that late, but I only saw your posting today. Thank you for your explanatory answer. But, I still do not understand british legal understanding. The first yellow pen, pictured in your post, was most probably manufactured in germany. I know the exact same model, but orange coloured, as a german export model for 16,5mm flares manufactured by Feistel. These all have a central firing pin. The offset firing pin, for rimfire blanks, is here in D mostly used in civilian products. Up until about 2 years ago, all german, civilian 15mm flare-launching-pens had a female threading with an offset firing pin for standard 6mm blanks. According to your above posted british legal definition, the fast majority of german, legal CIVILIAN flare-projectors would fall under the british firearms act. It seems, that every country in europe, has different legal definitions. The flares were just aluminum or plastic containers with a male threading on the bottom and a standard 15mm pressed star inside. The empty flare container had to be unscrewed after use and was to be discarded. But, many boys, with small pocket money, reloaded these with very cheap 6mm Flobert blanks and 15mm stars that are freely sold in germany since decades. If I understand your posting right, the difference between legal and not legal is only that, if the item is used by the military it is NOT legal and does not depend on any real technical, constructive difference. Attached are 2 pages from the export catalog of the defunct company Feistel Pyrotechnics. The first page shows 2 flarepens. 1 is for export, the other for civilian use in germany. As I mentioned before, civilian launchers in D need to have a PTB No. stamped on (german technical, legal registration) If an absolutely identical item has no PTB No. stamped on, it falls under the german firearms act. The other page shows particulars of the 2-way flareigniter that I have been asking about originaly. This for shure is a sole military use item, but in no way a firearm. It is a mechanical, tripwire flare-igniter, centerfire with a female threading and may be called a "pistol" in british usage. Does british legal definition, even if this is in no way a firearm, make this item fall under the british firearms act ?
Thanking you for your kind consideration and wishing you all a good year 2017, I remain, yours
Bellifortis.
 

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Hallo signal-projector buffs,
relating to the above discussion I show you another page from the aforementioned german export catalog. It shows the Heckler & Koch 5-shot flare-projector, which was developed for the emergency packet of downed military pilots and also issued in germany for this use. This item, without PTB stamp is illegal in germany without a firearms licence. The exact same item was afterwards also sold, on the civilian market, with a PTB stamp. This is legal in D. This launcher is still considered to be the Best (shooting height and luminious intensity) of all the models that have appeared on the market up till now. Meanwhile, the ammunition is not produced anymore,IMG_0053.jpg it has become very hard to find the ammunition for these. They have become a collectors item and sell in auctions for more than 10 euros a piece. The H & K launcher also is quite dear and has always sold for more than 180 Euros. My question now is : How are these items ( launcher and ammunition ) considered legaly in GB and the US ? A firearm, even if it has no barrel ?
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
 
GB Firearms Law is a very complex area (even for those who work with it regularly).
I have copied and pasted below an extract from the current Home Office Guidance on Firearms Law -

Signalling apparatus
13.65 Signalling apparatus may include flare pistols of up to one-and-a-half inch (37mm) calibre,
and pen-type launchers for distress flares, as well as bird scaring apparatus used at
airports or for agricultural bird scaring, where use of a conventional shotgun would be
inappropriate. Permission to possess such items is normally granted to ships’ masters as
part of ships’ equipment, to small boat owners, to harbour or airport employees, farms/
estate managers (bird scaring) or to members of mountain rescue teams. Deerstalkers,
wildfowlers or hill walkers who operate in isolated areas may also need to seek authority to
carry some form of distress flare.
13.66 Flares of a kind that use a male spigot launcher are not subject to controls and are
commonly used by mariners, hill walkers and others. Likewise, gas powered ‘guns’
and blank firing guns used by farmers to scare birds from crops are not subject to
certification, and controlled firearms are not generally needed for this purpose. However,
the ammunition for such bird scaring equipment is usually a single projectile, and is thus
subject to certification. Line-throwing rockets (and their launchers/projectors) and similar
devices for throwing ropes to ships in distress are not generally considered to be “firearms”
for certification purposes.

In many circumstances, unique and unusual weapon types have had to be subject of a legal decision in court to determine if they do or do not require a certificate for lawful possession.

The H&K Launcher is new to me. Have you more information on the internal action please? Perhaps a diagram or sketch of the action?
Kind regards and Happy New Year to all.
 
I think the flare round used in the H&K EFL launcher is similar in principle to the spigot type mini flare.

The difference is that the H&K round is fed from the magazine and once fired, the spigot part is ejected out of the top of the launcher as the next round is pushed up by the magazine follower.

I don't have a drawing, and it is a long time since I have seen one.
 
Attached you find 2 photos made of the beautiful book by Wolfgang Kern, "German Illuminating-and Signalpistols". This signaling device was carried by Tornado jet crews, so I expected also in GB. The 3rd picture is of another german civilian pyro launching device. It uses 6mm flobert blanks and 15mm Pyroshot. I used it myself on sylvester to test some new effects which just were introduced on the german market. This device can fire 8 shots vertically upwards. Thank you for your explanations, but nobody has answered my original question about the pull-firing-device.
greetings,
Bellifortis.
 

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Thank you for the extra information.
I seem to have forgotten to respond to your original question too!
Your pull firing device is very similar to some devices that I have and use for firing primer caps that then initiate shocktube for demolition and EOD work.
I have metal and plastic versions. Both came from sources in the USA and have been accepted into GB without the need for a Firearms Certificate.
I will provide some photographs hopefully within 24 hours for your comparison.
Kind regards.
 
Hallo exat808,
thanks for your answer. Every country seems to have its own different regulations. To me as a german, the british definition of a male spigot type launcher being legal for everybody and the female one being reserved for the military and needing a firearms licence seems absolutely strange and unreasonable. But, every country has the right to do as it pleases and nobody has any right to tell another country what to do. Since more than 25 years european countries have worked on a common explosive and firearms legislation. The explosive part, which includes Pyrotechnics, is well on the way, even I am not happy with the result. But, as you see, the arms legislation is a very long shot from anything common and every country does as it sees fit. And shure, this legislation has historical reasoning and developments were different in every country. I don't think that I will see any common legislation in my lifetime. But, it would be very nice. Everybody would know what he can and can not do and own, do buisiness and travel with them everywhere he likes to. I'm just dreaming.
with kind regards,
Bellifortis.
 
I have more questions. Are the flarecartridges for the 16 (16,5)mm male-spigot pens (the yellow one in the picture) still available on the UK marketplace ? Production in Germany of these items stopped in 1991. And, is the trade in this civilian pyrosignal cartridges completely free in the UK ?
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Hi
The attached document explains why a device that can be screwed onto a flare or other article containing a percussion cap might be treated as a Firearm in GB.
 
Hi again Bellifortis.
I agree with your observations regarding domestic firearms legislation around the EU.
I have been involved with UK/GB explosives legislation for many years and have watched it evolve alongside EU Directives in an attempt to harmonise matters.
Firearms as you have observed have taken different courses for many reasons that are not in the remit of this forum!
Perhaps PM me if you wish to discuss.
Kind regards
 
Hallo exat808,
thank you very much for this very enlightening discussion. Sorry to all the other members who may find it boring. These small flares are a "Tour par force" of german postwar pyrotechnic buisiness history and a prime example on how buisiness can outrun politics, by creating facts. The 2 links you presented for the Pains-Wessex Miniflares show the originally called M-150 S model that had been sold by COMET Bremerhaven for many years, exclusively for Export. I tried, but could not purchase it in Germany 10 years ago. Attached is a foto of the M9/15mm Miniflares that were produced and sold in Germany and mainland europe since more than 50 years for civilian use. These contain a 6mm Flobert rimfire-blank and were sold here for civilian use. Quite a few years ago Chemring bought Pains-Wessex and the Marine-signals part of COMET, while the Infrared decoy flare, covering smoke and other mil applications were bought by Rheinmetall. The civilian Fireworks-buisiness was taken over by the chinese. At this time the traditional M9/15mm german flares went suddenly on sellout for 0,28 GBP instead of the normal price of 1,70 GBP, and the formerly prohibited export model M-150 S appeared as a sole model on the market. Meanwhile Chemring has sold Pains-Wessex and COMET to Drew Marine Signal & Safety UK Ltd. They appear to be the manufacturer of the Miniflare kits of Pains-Wessex. To be able to sell these items in the UK and the rest of the world, the since more than 50 years in germany legal model was discontinued and the formerly illegal export model was introduced in germany. To completely concur with the purely british legal definition ( which is the opposite of the still holding german one) Drew Marine in 2016 even changed the 6mm Flobert rimfire to a centerfire. So, a private company manages to make all german consumers concur with british legal definitions which really are opposite to german ones. Politics would never have managed to force such a thing on all german consumers. It also shows how intertwined international buisiness has become. The Foto shows in the backrow Dummy russian flares, I picked up at a trade fare around 25 years ago. The middle row shows different older aluminum cased pyro cartridges and in the front the last model plastic cased ones. The other foto shows the Dummy blister pack of russian manufacture. The 2 data sheets of Drew Marine I just downloaded from the internet. They now don't even sell spare flares any more, but only the very expensive kits including the pen.
With kind regards,
Bellifortis.
 

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