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7,5cm K. Gr. rot Pz

That is awesome Marek. I have never before seen a photo of the HEAT round for the KwK 37 with the KPS skirt style driving band.

Was there any difference in the 7.5cm Gr. Patr. 38 Kw.K. and the 7.5cm Gr. Patr. Hl/A Kw.K. 40 projectiles?

I have a nice 7.5cm Hl/B projectile with a KPS drive band but maybe they are more common.

PC
 

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It is my understanding the only difference is the driving band. The KPS skirt style band was only used in the KwK 37 gun. The Patr. 38 Hl/A with FES driving band (this does not have the skirt) could be used with the KwK 37, KwK 40 or Pak 40. The Hl/B was also acceptable for use in all three weapons with a KPS or FES bands (neither of these had the skirt style).
 
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The Hl/B was also acceptable for use in all three weapons with a KPS or FES bands (neither of these had the skirt style).

I had a quick look through my reference stuff but the finer details in the Ringbucher can be hard to read. Instead I'll just post a picture.

It's definitely not the normal FES design though.

Thanks
PCIMG_0038.JPGIMG_0037.jpgIMG_0032.JPG
 
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Never realised there was a difference in the 7.5cm KPS drive bands. I think I have only ever noticed the one design or maybe I just missed it. Have you an example of both KPS designs please?

Thanks
PC

I have the same info as M8owner. The KPS "skirt" band in this case tells us that this was used only in KwK 37 (the 38 Gr HL we're talking about).
Some of the 7,5cm projectiles with KPS skirt band could have been use in Pak40 for example.

1.jpg3.jpg4.jpg5.jpg

Oner funny thing here. Take a look at the PzGr39 with the KPS skirt band. Is this a mistake? I have never seen one like this.
 
Sorry marek I edited my post as you were sending a reply.

It is better to use the original Ringbucher reference as it is an original source.

Have a look at this Pzgr 39 projectile.
 

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Don't believe only in once source ;) Well mine was russian so there can be mistakes.
So thwere was a KPS version PzGr39 after all. This is awesome :) Thanks StielGr.
 
That just turned my whole world upside down. A 75mm Patr. 38 Hl/B and a Pzgr 39 with KPS skirt style driving bands. I had no idea they existed.
 
Guys I think Ive fixed my original mistake once and for all by throwing those old nasty projectiles out and putting these into the cases.
I have the heeres dienstvorschrift doc somewhere for this...ill dig it out later..

Pak37-41s-1024.jpg
Rich
(ps. This will really screw with those World of Tanks boys - with as smidge of photoshop skills)
 
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StielGr - I love both those projectiles, the Pzgr & HL both with KPS...really nice
 
Was there any difference in the 7.5cm Gr. Patr. 38 Kw.K. and the 7.5cm Gr. Patr. Hl/A Kw.K. 40 projectiles?PC

Actually there were 4 different HC shells used with the 7,5 cm Kwk:
1- the early 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl (with short cap);
2- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/A (with short cap);
3- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/B;
4- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/C.

The difference between 1- and 2- was only internal.
 

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Actually there were 4 different HC shells used with the 7,5 cm Kwk:
1- the early 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl (with short cap);
2- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/A (with short cap);
3- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/B;
4- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/C.

The difference between 1- and 2- was only internal.

greif what about the driving bands? Were all Hl 38 A/B/C projectales used with a KPS skirt band?
 
There also trials with KPS shells & short cap like IGr38 & IGr38 Hl/A but cap made from steel instead of zinc. It must be around 1938-40
 
Pics now...
 

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Actually there were 4 different HC shells used with the 7,5 cm Kwk:
1- the early 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl (with short cap);
2- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/A (with short cap);
3- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/B;
4- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/C.

The difference between 1- and 2- was only internal.

Is this design progression the same for ALL 75mm hollow charge shells (infantry guns, anti-tank, kwk 38/40/42 etc)?

1) HL = short nose, "U" cup shaped liner cavity, flash tube from fuze through liner
2) HL/A = short nose, funnel shaped liner, no flash tube above liner
3) HL/B = longer stand-off nose, funnel shaped liner
4) HL/C = longer stand-off nose, funnel shaped liner, funnel shaped washer in front of the cone

For the 105mm HL rounds Ian Hogg showed them as below, which means that the 105mm HL would have had a completely different development cycle and the suffix a different meaning than for the 75mm. Or was Ian Hogg incorrect?
I would have thought what works best in 75 would also work best in 105.

hl 001.jpg
 
Another valid case for the 7.5cm K. Gr. rot Pz... a pre-1943 American M18 (I've got my projectile stuck there until I find a decent German case).

DSCF8710.jpg

For those unfamiliar with the story - Richard Hunnicutt's Tome on the Sherman tank has fascinating detail about this round.
In a nut shell, in 1942 the M61 APCBC was not available in quantity for the British M3 medium tanks so they were forced to primarily use M72 shot. They conducted firing tests against pz IIIs in Cairo in March 1942 and confirmed that the M72 was breaking up at certain ranges against the Pz III's face hardened armor. In early 42' during the relief of Tobruk they captured some 50,000 tons of German ammo. A Major Northy in the British Royal Army Ordnance Corps realized if you trimmed the band/skirt down on the K. Gr. Rot and stuck it in an American case it could provide a solution to their uncapped ammo problem. It was tested side by side in Cairo with newly flown in M61 APCBC and performance was found to be identical. So they converted 15,000 rounds and started using it in late May 1942 on the Gazala line. Incidentally they similarly converted another 2000 rounds of KWK37 HE/smoke (from older HE Mk I rounds).
 
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Makes sense as the projectile was modified for use in Polish type 97 guns (as K.Gr. rot Pz. (p) ) too. As this used a casing basically identical, the German mods too their rounds must have been similar.
 
It could be fired out of the captured French 75's or FK 231 (f), captured French 75's in Polish service (p) and the modified French 75mm Pak 97/38 antitank gun.
 

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What does K. Gr. rot pz mean? I know that rot = red for the red band these had above the driving bad. Does K. Gr. = Kanone Granate or cannon projectile? Should the full and proper name of this projectile be "Kanone Granate Rot Panzer"? I looked through the 1934 ammo manual for the FK 16 na WWI field guns converted from 77mm to 75mm, and it just starts out calling them K. Gr. rot P with the full name never spelled out.
 
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Nearly perfect,
"Kanonen-Granate, rot, Panzer", please see attachment (No.15).
Bob
 

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