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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by greif View Post
    Actually there were 4 different HC shells used with the 7,5 cm Kwk:
    1- the early 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl (with short cap);
    2- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/A (with short cap);
    3- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/B;
    4- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/C.

    The difference between 1- and 2- was only internal.
    greif what about the driving bands? Were all Hl 38 A/B/C projectales used with a KPS skirt band?

  2. #32
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    I don't really know, but I have never seen a Hl/C with KPS driving bands.

  3. #33
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    There also trials with KPS shells & short cap like IGr38 & IGr38 Hl/A but cap made from steel instead of zinc. It must be around 1938-40

  4. #34
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    Pics now...

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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by greif View Post
    Actually there were 4 different HC shells used with the 7,5 cm Kwk:
    1- the early 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl (with short cap);
    2- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/A (with short cap);
    3- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/B;
    4- the 7,5 cm Gr 38 Hl/C.

    The difference between 1- and 2- was only internal.
    Is this design progression the same for ALL 75mm hollow charge shells (infantry guns, anti-tank, kwk 38/40/42 etc)?

    1) HL = short nose, "U" cup shaped liner cavity, flash tube from fuze through liner
    2) HL/A = short nose, funnel shaped liner, no flash tube above liner
    3) HL/B = longer stand-off nose, funnel shaped liner
    4) HL/C = longer stand-off nose, funnel shaped liner, funnel shaped washer in front of the cone

    For the 105mm HL rounds Ian Hogg showed them as below, which means that the 105mm HL would have had a completely different development cycle and the suffix a different meaning than for the 75mm. Or was Ian Hogg incorrect?
    I would have thought what works best in 75 would also work best in 105.

    hl 001.jpg

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  8. #36
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    Another valid case for the 7.5cm K. Gr. rot Pz... a pre-1943 American M18 (I've got my projectile stuck there until I find a decent German case).

    DSCF8710.jpg

    For those unfamiliar with the story - Richard Hunnicutt's Tome on the Sherman tank has fascinating detail about this round.
    In a nut shell, in 1942 the M61 APCBC was not available in quantity for the British M3 medium tanks so they were forced to primarily use M72 shot. They conducted firing tests against pz IIIs in Cairo in March 1942 and confirmed that the M72 was breaking up at certain ranges against the Pz III's face hardened armor. In early 42' during the relief of Tobruk they captured some 50,000 tons of German ammo. A Major Northy in the British Royal Army Ordnance Corps realized if you trimmed the band/skirt down on the K. Gr. Rot and stuck it in an American case it could provide a solution to their uncapped ammo problem. It was tested side by side in Cairo with newly flown in M61 APCBC and performance was found to be identical. So they converted 15,000 rounds and started using it in late May 1942 on the Gazala line. Incidentally they similarly converted another 2000 rounds of KWK37 HE/smoke (from older HE Mk I rounds).
    Last edited by jeff w; 1st June 2017 at 03:14 PM.

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  10. #37
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    Makes sense as the projectile was modified for use in Polish type 97 guns (as K.Gr. rot Pz. (p) ) too. As this used a casing basically identical, the German mods too their rounds must have been similar.

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  12. #38
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    It could be fired out of the captured French 75's or FK 231 (f), captured French 75's in Polish service (p) and the modified French 75mm Pak 97/38 antitank gun.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  14. #39
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    What does K. Gr. rot pz mean? I know that rot = red for the red band these had above the driving bad. Does K. Gr. = Kanone Granate or cannon projectile? Should the full and proper name of this projectile be "Kanone Granate Rot Panzer"? I looked through the 1934 ammo manual for the FK 16 na WWI field guns converted from 77mm to 75mm, and it just starts out calling them K. Gr. rot P with the full name never spelled out.
    Last edited by M8owner; 19th November 2017 at 02:45 PM.

  15. #40
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    Nearly perfect,
    "Kanonen-Granate, rot, Panzer", please see attachment (No.15).
    Bob
    Attached Images Attached Images
    any live or recovered ordnance shown in my posts was dealt with by trained EOD personnel

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