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Shipping inert artillery round UK to US by sea. Possible these days?

JCB99

Well-Known Member
Hello all. I am seeking advice about purchasing an inert 37mm round and having it shipped by sea from the UK to the US. A military dealer in the UK has the piece and I'd like to purchase it. I'm concerned about Legality, risks and/or postal restrictions. I'd like to know if this can be done legally these days. The Round is WWI vintage, empty AP Projo is missing the base fuze and the empty interior is visible. The brass shell case is empty and the base primer is missing. can this be done? Advice is needed. Any US buyers please share your experiences.

Jim
japaneseordnance at yahoo.com
 
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It is a risk the buyer takes. Legally no ordnance either inert or live can be shipped by any postal carrier period. Every postal carrier has a list of excluded items that are not allowed to be shipped incorporated within their terms and conditions. There you will find an exclusion for 'ammunition' this is a cover all types and categories exclusion. If an item is stopped or searched crossing a border it is simply confiscated and no compensation or reimbursement of costs is possible. The seller MAY be fined for breach of postal conditions but this is rare unless they have been repeatedly warned about sending such items.

The safest solution is to buy within your own country, this way you are almost certain to recieve it. Problems usually only arise when an item of ordance crosses a country border and certainly when crossing either an international border or if being sent via airmail.

Sending via surface i.e. sea / shipping container is much safer however, there is no guarantee at all that an inspection will not be made, if it is, the decision to confiscate will depend on the individual at the time of inspection. If they are experienced and understand the item is not really an issue it will pass on to the buyer (possibly with having packaged tape all over it indicating inspection), if the inspector is inexperienced or just wants to make an fuss, the item will be confiscated.

In summary: There is no absolutely safe solution to posting inert ordnance any longer due to all the terrorist activities around the world. Everybody will have their own preferences or recomendations on who to choose and you may be lucky 9 out of 10 times sending or recieving items but there is absolutely no guarantees any more.

Hope this helps. I would suggest, if you like it buy it and make sure the sender provides a tracking number or proof of postage or a picture of the sending receipt. You can ask no more of the seller. The seller will not take responsibility for any loss or confiscation due to these restrictions. Most inert ordnance collectors accept this as being par for the course these days. If you cannot accept that exposure don't buy outside you home country.

QuickSilver
 
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I bought a great number of items out of the UK in 2014-2016. Then, it was as if UK customs flipped a switch. Almost everything I shipped was seized. So, I stopped. I will no longer ship any such items from the UK
 
Unfortunately, that appears to be the case M8owner. Many UK dealers appear to have decided not to ship inert ordnance outside the UK now OR are more selective on those items that they send although, there are still no guarantee's and the decision always comes down to the buyer at the end of the day and whether they are prepared to take the risk.

People just need to be aware about the changing attitude towards these items and make a call for themselves. I personally have lost items over the past six months coming into the UK from France, Germany, Poland & Italy, very dissapointing as several years ago there were very few problems. However, I personally choose to continue to buy items from these countries as I recieve far more than I loose. It's a personal decision. Nobody that is a seasoned collector can really claim they are unaware of how attitudes have changed buying / selling across borders anymore as this topic has been discussed many times.
 
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When something was confiscated did either the sender or receiver get any notification (or even more problems)?

I wonder because when the customs are seizing an item (because of whatever reason) by my understanding there should be some official document describing the reason and maybe a fine for the sender or receiver (depending which countries customs seized the item).

About the carrier I don't know if it is allowed in the UK for them to open and inspect the content of a parcel? In Germany it isn't allowed. But if the parcel for example starts to burn and the content was against their transport rules you must pay for damage.

I know it's only theory but in my eyes it is stealing if the customs or the carrier is seizing an item without notifying the owner about the offical reason (mentioning which law the item was breaking). Even the customs can make failures by lack of knowledge (for sure) an declare an item illegal which isn't really. If you are trying to import medicine it can get confiscated and you must pay a heavy fine when they are declared illegal drugs. But in this case you have an official way to defend yourself and if you have the right on your side you can proof that they are legal and get them back. If not you must pay the fine because you did break the law - which of course is totally right.

I wonder what's the difference for inert ammunition when it is simply disappearing during transport? Could it be, that the customs have some nice "not allowed" museum collections where ordnance always looks nice inside?
 
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I , too, have had mysterious "loss in transit" items. Last time was 3 years ago when 2 items from UK ( cost $1200) simply disappeared. Since then I have not bought anything from the UK , which pained me as I had some very nice people there in dealings in the past. I have received over 800 items from many countries, but have "lost" only about 10-12. But those have been mostly very rare items, truly irreplaceable. Not once has anyone reported the loss or confiscation. Loss of freedom in activities is has been increasing due to fanatical terrorists and will probably increase. Which means, to me, that the bastards are winning. I guess we have to try wining the transportation gamble. or take up knitting!!No, the needles are considered lethal weapons!
 
In reply to Alpini's question, majority of the time there is absolutely no requirement for customs to notify the sender or the recipient if an item is confiscated, as there is a clear breach in postal conditions. I believe every single postal carrier in Europe have basically the same exclusions on what can cannot be sent i.e. no ordnance 'ammuntion', just like fireworks, knives and anqtiues etc .... the list seems to grow every year. Most people ignore this as otherwise half of what's on eBay would be excluded. The confiscations are supposed to be reported to police, however, who would actually know if a customs agent took the items for himself? in all reality if the items get reported to police or EOD, the counter terrorism branch is informed and will follow up with the sender ONLY if numerous instances are reported within a specified period of time. The breach lies with the sender and any fine is directed towards the person who posts the item. I know of one UK dealer that was really stung by Canadian customs and was written to via the Canadian Police attaching a letter from customs and he was subsequetly fined C$600. I saw this letter and the attachment from customs several years ago and it would certainly make you think twice before sending anything to Canada again, it was quite intimidating.

As far as defending yourself or getting the item back Alpini, there is a clear line which has been drawn in the sand - If the item is an excluded item, of which is your duty to establish before posting by reading the T&C's of the postage carrier there is nothing for customs or the postal services to answer for. This is the blunt if unsatisfactory party line that any claim will be met with. There is no legal remedy at all, as far as they are concerned a clear breach in transporting excluded items trumps any argument that may be made against this decsion. Fortunately as I have said before, MOST of the time sending within ones own country is trouble free however, a TV program aired a few months back in the UK showed how drug dealers are using the postal service to avoid the risk of dealing on the streets. As there is no way of preventing this the post office are considering bringing in measures to scan parcels UK to UK with sniffing devices etc ... it's a sign of the times. I also deal in antiques and have had items go missing, when I inform the PO of this I have been told the insurance is invalid as antiques and ceramics etc. things that are breakable are also excluded. I started using Hermes (a well known German company which operates in the UK) they also decline to reimburse dealers and have a huge exclusion list. So many people never read the T&C's and therefore the carriers are protected by the exclusions, hence the onus is always on the person sending the package to prevent such confiscations ! Those that infringe this run the risk. To many this is an acceptable risk, to others it unfortunately changes whole attitude from buying abroad.
 
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@Quicksilver: I just wonder because to my understanding the customs shouldn't be responsible for transport rules of the carrier but for local import and export laws and firearms regulations, etc. But may be I am wrong as it's not my very special field of knowledge. And the question would be how complicated official permission papers would be. If a company wants to sell some tons of ordnance it is possible in most cases. But a single piece of inert ordnance is a problem - what's wrong in this world :)

I also know that even if there would be official documents, it's a hard and long fight then to get anything back. The authorities here (with few exceptions) are more interested in producing numbers for the statistics and quickly finish their work then making fair and correct decisions - sadly.
 
Just wanted to chip in and say that if item/s were confiscated on entering the UK, and no information or contact was made by UK customs to the reciepient, would a Freedom of information request shed some light on the reasons for confiscation, should such a request be eligible.
It seems almost any info nowadays, once kept behind locked governmental doors, is now available to the public if a FOI request is made. Surely there must be documentation within customs detailing the confiscation process. It will surely have the details of the reciepient, who has far as I know will have the right to access this information.
Or could it be that 'some requests will be refused' on the grounds that it is not in the public interest, national security, etc?
 
Alpini - I agree with your thoughts in your last correspondence that authorities are with few exceptions more interested in producing numbers for statistic than making fair or correct decisions. I think that is exactly how it works and the few people that do complain about having something taken are given the party line that the sender is in breach so basically touch luck !!! However starshell's comment may have some merit, not that I have ever tried but it may be possible to pursue a FOI request. Not sure how this is made or the procedures but that could be an interesting approach - probably with the same conclusion but would be worth go. Nest time this happens to me I will try to pursue this line of enquiry (any help on where I would begin would be welcome). Presume a google search will provide the answers like anything else these days. !!
 
Hello all. I am seeking advice about purchasing an inert 37mm round and having it shipped by sea from the UK to the US. A military dealer in the UK has the piece and I'd like to purchase it. I'm concerned about Legality, risks and/or postal restrictions. I'd like to know if this can be done legally these days. The Round is WWI vintage, empty AP Projo is missing the base fuze and the empty interior is visible. The brass shell case is empty and the base primer is missing. can this be done? Advice is needed. Any US buyers please share your experiences.

Jim

japaneseordnance at yahoo.com

Jim,
it's complicated. Generally, if you want to bring in anything military, you have to request permission first - Form 6 with the ATF. Some things can be allowed, some thing are not. Further complicating it is that you are not only dealing with ATF, some things that may be allowed by ATF may be refused by Customs under their regulations. In regard to mailing ordnance, it is perfectly legal to mail ordnance inside the US, observing the rules which have been previously posted. Other countries have other rules.

As already mentioned, it is getting more and more difficult, and it is our own fault. One of the big sellers of Jap stuff from China was sending live stuff to the US via EBay. Teenagers purchasing live French projos and flying them back to the US via Heathrow. Collectors found on both sides of the Atlantic with significant quantities of live materials. The list goes on, but it comes down to policing our own ranks, or the Govt will do it for us.
 
Thanks all

Quicksilver, JO and everybody else, thank you for the PM's, replies and advice. I am not going to attempt this, just the thought of the item in question being confiscated and destroyed is enough for me not to do this. Thank you all.

:(
jim
japaneseOrdnance at yahoo.com
 
@Quicksilver: I just wonder because to my understanding the customs shouldn't be responsible for transport rules of the carrier but for local import and export laws and firearms regulations, etc.

Here in Australia what happens once customs finds inert ordnance in the mail is that they will seize and then notify you. If you have a permit to import then once they have received it they will release the item. They will not insert it back into the postal system and will force to either pay for a courier delivery which can be expensive or pick it up in person. They will accept a friend collecting it but only after a hell of a lot of wrangling and pleading.

It is a bummer of a world. We should all move to New Zealand as they are more realistic in their approach but then they will kill you with customs duties if the shipment is over NZD$300 in value.
 
I found a local pack and send type company that was happy to bring in to NZ, ordnance items for me, from the UK.
The only problem was they insisted on having UK govt. agency issued 'Inert/FFE' certificates for the items.
Couldn't get the seller to obtain these,don't even know if this is available.

So it was doable, just not able to be done!.
 
Here in Australia what happens once customs finds inert ordnance in the mail is that they will seize and then notify you. If you have a permit to import then once they have received it they will release the item. They will not insert it back into the postal system and will force to either pay for a courier delivery which can be expensive or pick it up in person. They will accept a friend collecting it but only after a hell of a lot of wrangling and pleading.

It is a bummer of a world. We should all move to New Zealand as they are more realistic in their approach but then they will kill you with customs duties if the shipment is over NZD$300 in value.



And NZ being so far away from anywhere, the customs value also includes the cost of freight,so NZ $300 (about 140 UK pound) doesn't give a lot of weight allowance.
 
It's not just the USA. A few years ago I sold 3 Mills grenades, a French Citroen grenade and a No 15 to a man in Italy. They grenades were not great quality, mainly dug ups, the Mills had no centrepieces. He insisted I post them and I said 'at your risk'. They never turned up. I made a claim for compensation and got a letter in response saying they had been seized. A year or so later I was talking to a friend in the Police Special Branch and he said he had heard the Heathrow Mail Centre had been closed and evacuated when they found my package. I think I was lucky not to get more than a letter.
 
I decided to try and get one more harmless/legal item shipped from the UK last year - a No. 119 "DRILL" fuse. It is hollow and easy to verify as inert. Mick shipped it to me with a nice inert declaration document inside the package. It made it out the UK without issues but never showed up in the US - till yesterday - 5 months later. It had been opened by US customs and was taped back together with US Customs tape. No US customs documents were included.
 
Hello.
Shipping from Poland to US is also very hard. It was easier in 2017 but now it is almost impossible to ship something bigger than an inert fuze. There are new custom regulations in progress.
Shipping is still possible but I'm sure you can forget shipping bigger items for now.
Regards, Marek
 
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