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Type 7 (G.P.) Grenade Box

C

CartDorset

Active Member
I recently bought a large British ammo box, dated 1939, which is marked in yellow standard 3/4" lettering "GRENADE .TYPE 7 (G.P.) 1 25" with large 1" numbers "339" above this and on both end inside the handles. Lettering looks to have been over painted green at a later date.

I had thought that the 339 might be the date 3/39 or 3-39 but no sign of this spacing. The only wartime GP Grenade I can find is the small SOE one, but I can't see that this was ever called a type 7 and wouldn't have been about in 1939. The box also seems too large for those. The No.7 Grenade was a WW1 interim type so I'm guessing wasn't issued in 1939. Definitely no missing numbers - so just a 7, not 77, 75, etc. Other boxes seem to use "No. 77" for numbered series grenades rather than "TYPE 77" and this box doesn't seem to match the usual labelling format for grenade boxes.

Does anyone recognise the designation at all?

thanks
 
LCplCombat said:
Can you show more pics of the box itself and the stampings on in?
Click to expand...

I've tucked the box away for the minute, but will get it out for more pics. No dividers or anything like that inside though.

The lid stamp is A12, ELX I 1939. I've seen three A12 mk 1 boxes, all ELX manufactured.

The 339 is repeated on each end if that helps identify what it means.

The consolidated container list only has these in use for Livens projector charges, so this seems to be another use.
 
Doesn't answer the grenade question, but the box was manufactured by Electrolux, Luton.
 
I've done a bit more research trying to answer my own query which perhaps does support this being a box for SOE GP grenades. Firstly SOE/Aston house/Station XII do seem to have used "type" to describe grenades. I found a post describing the type 6 modified No.73 used to assassinate Heydrich in June 1942.
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/92513-what-is-this-247-fuze-from-a-79-grenade/page2


There is another post about a manufacturers sample of the GP Grenade from early 1943. So this suggests the GP Grenade was developed after the Type 6 was used. (ie Type 7 logically followed Type 6...)


The Secret Agent's Handbook says that SOE GP Grenades were packed 50 to a box with five No.247s in a metal cylinder and Dets in a magazine mk.II. Of course this means most were meant to be used as demolition charges rather than as grenades. The box size is given as 22'"x17"x8". The A12 is 25.2"x17.375"x8.5" which seems remarkably close (I'll have to check what the internal measurements are in case they are the same as quoted). The GP Grenade is said to be 4.375"X1.875"x2.25" which would mean 72 would fit upright. If the height includes the Allways fuse, then it would hold two layers without fuse caps with space for the fuses and dets, perhaps indicating that the 125 on my box is the number of grenades it held?


I still can't find anything absolutely definitive to say the Grenade Type 7 (GP) and the SOE GP grenade are definitely the same as thing, but that looks most likely to me now. I'm certainly happy with the purchase. Anyone have 125 GP Grenades I could borrow just to check the fit?


Presumably a box like this was a transit box, just to transport the grenades to a packing station where they could go into drop cylinders. The box is too big to fit inside a type C cylinder.


Obviously it would be great to hear from anyone that can confirm my suppositions with some documentary proof.
 
'Type 6' was a label added to Aston House designs and is derived from the 6 in their cover name ES6 (WD).
 
Thanks.
Perhaps the difference is that there was already a Type 6 grenade, so that when they came up with the GP they used Type 7?
There are Type 6 crimping tools, limpets and tyre bursters mk 1 and 2 and various type 6 switches - later numbered, but the GP Grenade doesn't seem to have been known by a Type 6 name.

All speculation of course. There doesn't seem too much in writing about the GP Grenades, though 700,000 or so made (and filled)

I've measured the interior which is 23.5"x16.5"x8". So not identical to the quoted figures, but not far off.

And taken a few photos.
 

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If the 3 39 stencil is a date, then the box predates any SOE-type activities. The contents may then have been fireworks, along the lines of GP thunderflashes or effects simulators. I have next to nothing on fireworks, but I found the attached while looking for something else.



.
 

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"Any theories as to the contents of the box Norman ?"

Sorry Tony I am struggling with this one. 'A Series' boxes were designed for TW stores but, of course, they were no doubt used for non-TW munitions, particularly by 1939.

GP Grenades were issued 50 in a B167A; there may have been other configurations. The Navy used/experimented with GP grenades and developed their 14oz charge from it (30 in box W76). When assembled as a line charge consisting of 60 x 14 oz units they were boxed in a W128.

I have seen the notation G P Grenade Type 6 but I cannot remember where (probably the Australian SRD files). It surprised me at the time because the GP Grenade was developed initially in 1942 by Meek at Station IX rather than the 'Type 6' boys at Station XII.

All of which is not very helpful.
 
Thanks for that. Most interesting.

While I appreciate many items were packed in more than one configuration, the B167A doesn't match the measurements in the illustrated handbook mentioned for packaging for the GP Grenade, though neither does the A12 match exactly. That said, 50 GP grenades would fit nicely in a B167A, whereas they would rattle around an A12.

Station XII reportedly packed stores for Aux Units in A12 ammo boxes during winter 42/43, according to an account by a store man in Des Turner's book. So not that much of a stretch to think they packed other things in the same boxes. The Electrolux factory at Luton must have been pretty much the closest source of boxes for Aston House nr Stevenage. This was at the point they started packing to official standards, with correct class labels, etc.

Doesn't explain the type 7 annotation on the box though.

I originally wondered if the 339 was a date, but the spacing on the ends is 3 3 9 and 33 9 which makes me suspect it is a batch number.

No way at present to be sure what this box is/was, but a nice mystery. It should be on display as part of our CART display at various shows in the Southwest if anyone wants a closer look (It will be masquerading as an Aux Units box). Let me know if you are coming to see it and I'll make sure it is there!
 
I must admit that when I saw Snufkin's mention of the gunpowder grenade and fireworks, I thought that 'GP' stood for gunpowder, but now I see the filling it means General Purpose.
General purpose because of its multi roles.
As for the A12 package, this is probably a fraction package because possibly 50 is rather a lot for some operations.
Thanks for the info Norman.
 
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Bill,

It still might refer to gunpowder (or a pyrotechnic) grenade of some sort. The signal recognition grenades (Nos 64 and 65) employed by the Navy use a 'Type' notation to disguise the actual colour of the signal. The grenade were used for IFF purposes, hence the sensitivity. But as far as I am aware they only used Type 1, Type 2 and Type 3.

You have seen more trials stuff than most. You might comment on the possibility of the 'Type 7' referring to one of at least seven items for a particular trial.

Given that most people in the munitions business are deaf as a post it could be of course that the stenciller misheard the instruction to put Type 6 and put Type 7!!

I like the idea that the 339 is a batch number (or even an Order Number - refer to the notes).
 
More fascinating info. Thank you.

I've not seen B167A boxes dated pre 1944, so this appears to be a later packing format. As far as I can see, the B167A is a B167 without the internal "dividers" to slot mortar or other tubes between, making the later box more versatile. I'm not sure when they changed from yellow text on boxes to white text? I had assumed it was post war, but my interest stops after 1944 so I've not really looked closely. Taken together it implies there was an earlier and different packing for the 1942 created GP Grenade.

The A12 box is fractionally shallower, but overall much larger than the B167A. I can't see it as a fractional pack for GP grenades. If it is for GP Grenades (SOE type), which isn't clear, then the A12 could have held a lot more.

The order number is a nice thought, particularly when they use 336 as an example. It makes more sense than batch number which implies a link to manufacture. I've not seen any indication of batch numbers on the few photos I've seen of surviving GP Grenades. But then none of them were black either!
 
The GP Grenade was considered for the BRADDOCK (or MOON) programme, in fact it may owe its development to that programme. The idea of BRADDOCK was to drop/scatter supplies of small explosive charges and incendiaries into Germany to be used by disaffected Germans against the Nazi regime. Liberator pistols were also acquired for the scheme. In the event the GP Grenade was not used but I guess the bulk packing arrangements (for delivery to the people making up the parcels for dropping) were thought through and a box designed or adapted.

I did think that the B167A packing was more logistic than operational but the inclusion of a percentage of No247 fuzes seems to scupper that idea.
 
CartDorset said:
I'm not sure when they changed from yellow text on boxes to white text?
Click to expand...

I'm going to get this wrong in the exact detail, so don't shoot me.

Yellow text is still specified. White text is for non explosive stores or for markings that are are not specificaly related to the explosive nature of the contents. "Frac" or "Fraction" to denote a box that is not full for example.
If the text on your box is white it might indicate that it was marked but not to service standards.
 
LCplCombat said:
If the text on your box is white it might indicate that it was marked but not to service standards.
Click to expand...

The markings do look rather scant compared to both wood and metal ammunition boxes used for Nos 36, 69, 75 and 77 grenades.

Is there some document that defines weight limits for fully packed stores boxes? If the 125* does mean the number of grenades contained within, then the filled weight of the box is going to be around 150lb for the (Type 6) GP grenade. Would a single packed box of grenades weighing nearly 40lb over a hundredweight be seriously considered a manageable package?

*Re post #7, bodies without 247 fuzes attached.
 
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