What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Canadian .303 Blank with black base

37patt

Active Member
I have a Canadian .303 blank that has been blackened on the lower 17mm of the case. The head stamp reads:

12oclock - DAC (with broad arrow inside)
9 & 3oclock - 19 12
6oclock - VI

It has a flat 6 point "pie" crimp to close the case mouth, not the typical rose crimp seen on most .303 blanks. The flat crimp style seems to be common in Canada for the period, 1908 - 1912 at least.

What is unusual and a bit puzzling is the blackened base on the cartridge case. This is not a grenade launching blank (way to early) and I do have a second example of this blank without the lower portion stained black.

Would anyone know why it is blackened as I have not been able to find it in any of my reference books.
 
Sounds very much like staining from storage to me...one thing to check for is the primer also black?
I ask because any case blacking done at the manufactures would have been done before it was primed.
The 'flat pie crimp' is also fairly common on early UK blanks as well.

Tony
 
Yes, I agree that pictures would be best, unfortunately for this old dog it is a horrible exercise in frustration and I have pretty much given up trying - sorry all.

The black does not affect the primer and you can see where it goes down into the primer pocket, on the case wall there is a sharp, well defined line where it stops. The primer is not ringed or otherwise secured with stab marks. It does not look like improper storage as the rest of the cartridge is in very good condition.

The closest I've been able to find is the.303 Grenade Cartridge H Mark 4 but it was approved in 1944. The length of blackening on the base of this cartridge is about right.

Jimiles you are right, and I will still have to try and find someone who can give me a hand with pictures as this one is starting to be a real puzzle. Thanks for the answers so far though.

Eric
 
It is a possibility that this was an old case taken from storage during WW1, and blackened for use as a grenade blank, but then for some reason downgraded and used merely as a Mk.V blank.

I have seen several Mk.V blanks that have been made from cases intended for grenade blanks.
 
I have been considering that possibility ydnum303.

If it was being made into a Cartridge, Trench Mortar it is possible that having the black only half the proper height would be grounds to reject it. The rest of the grenade launching blanks had the top half of the case stained.

It is possible that Canada took down Ball Mk VI to turn into mortar blanks but, according to C.R. MacDonald, Canada didn't make any. He also seems to indicate that it wasn't until 1924 that we made a rifle grenade blank - the R.G. H Mark IZ

Well the hunt goes on.

Eric
 
Could it be a reject match cartridge ? I know the Canadian part dyed the cartridges that were used for competition shooting.
Cheers
Gary
 
I don't think it would have been a match cartridge, the early ones, 1908-1909, were either all black or the front half was blackened. This front half blackened was also used 1913-1914.

The later coloured bands were used 1921-1940 and were distinct bands, I suspect they were rolled on, not the lower part of the case being dipped.

A question, how did the case move through the production line in order to be blackened?

Would it be possible that in 1912 some of the cases were run through wrong side down as it were and the base was stained and not the neck, at which point they were pulled from the line and turned into blanks?

MacDonald does have an unknown ball cartridge with the primer and the lower third blackened and "Match?" as the description, but the date of 1916 on it seems to preclude the use of a 1912 dated case.

And here I thought this would be a relatively easy ID - this cartridge collecting business can be so much fun!!!

Thanks for all the help and ideas so far everyone.

Eric
 
I still say it's staining from storage and this is the reason why....photos of both versions of Mk IX .303" drill rounds and again of Mk III .303" drill rounds that look like the lower third of the case has been blackened,this was in fact caused by these drill rounds being 'stored' for a long period of time in chargers.

Tony

P7230001.jpgP7230002.jpg
 
Well now Tony, that is enlightening.

I just grabbed one of my chargers and sure enough the black stain matches almost perfectly with the height of the charger walls.

Notwithstanding that my cartridge is probably twice as dark as the ones you show, the simple answer is usually the correct one, at least according to Occam and his razor. Thank you very much.

I will add this to the collection but mark it as stained during storage in a charger. It will be a good example of spurious marks confusing junior collectors - Me.

I will still attempt to get a picture posted, but be patient as it may take a bit for me to do so.

Thanks to all,
Eric
 
There is a reference in the late Cliff Mac Donald's 303 reference book that there is a 303 match round with a blackened base. Maybe one of the cases was turned into a blank.
Danny.
 
Top