British no 44/80 fuze

[Wgreen]

Hi all while looking through my fuzes I found this it was dirty and I could not see the fuze no on cleaning it revealed lots of markings :
Star type mark which I believe means it was converted
R.l royal labs original maker? ( before conversion )
Large M unsure of this mark ?
No 44/80 iii mark and number of fuze
R.C Raleigh cycle company (fuze converter)
Large 400 crossed out (old lot no)
Large 60 new lot number
Original date 11/16 date of conversion 9/17
Broad arrow mark British ownership
I believe this fuze fitted into an adapter that fitted into a h.e shell below a no 80/44 fuze for a.a use and was used as a gaine and safety device having a shutter system within

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[MINENAZ16]

Her sister :

 

[AE501]

It was used in the Shells 18 Pr HE and Shrapnel and probably others.

 

[Andysarmoury]

Great Fuze and thanks for showing it, they can also be used on the 13 Pr, they are getting harder to find these days.
Cheers
Andy

 

[Wgreen]

Hi all while looking through my fuzes I found this it was dirty and I could not see the fuze no on cleaning it revealed lots of markings :
Star type mark which I believe means it was converted
R.l royal labs original maker? ( before conversion )
Large M unsure of this mark ?
No 44/80 iii mark and number of fuze
R.C Raleigh cycle company (fuze converter)
Large 400 crossed out (old lot no)
Large 60 new lot number
Original date 11/16 date of conversion 9/17
Broad arrow mark British ownership
I believe this fuze fitted into an adapter that fitted into a h.e shell below a no 80/44 fuze for a.a use and was used as a gaine and safety device having a shutter system within

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Hi thanks for the responses I also have a 80/44 fuze and the no 11 fuze /gaine adapter fitted into a 3" h.e cutaway projectile as the no 11 does I believe the same job as the 44/80 fuze I have added it to this thread


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[Wgreen]

Hi thanks for the responses I also have a 80/44 fuze and the no 11 fuze / adapter fitted into a 3" h.e cutaway projectile as the no 11 does I believe the same job as the 44/80 fuze I have added it to this thread


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[TimG]

A confusing fuze.

R.C. were the manufacturers of the fuze. R.C. is actually shown as the monogram of Robey & Co, Globe Works, Lincoln. Their war work was aeroplanes and sea planes and mines. Raleigh are not shown a monogram, but their war work was fuzes and gaines, so it would appear it was indeed made by Raleigh.

A 'M' after the fuze mark denotes modification of the original design. An asterisk after the mark of fuze indicates conversion. The appears to be a space issue for stamping on this fuze which might explain why the 'M' and '*' precede the mark of fuze. Also, on a converted fuze the monogram of the original manufacturer is normally barred out.

TimG

The No. 11 is a gaine, not a fuze.

 

[Wgreen]

Hi Tim I am aware that the no 11 is a gaine but as far as I'm aware has a shutter system and does the same job as the 44/80 I maybe wrong, I also realised after I posted the first thread that the large M was for modified thanks

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[Alpini]

Her sister :

View attachment 137572View attachment 137573

Can anyone tell me what was the purpose of this combination? So why didn't they use a normal No.80 T&P fuze instead?

 

[TimG]

Alpini,

The best an 80 can do is ignite powder, it hasn't got the energy to detonate an HE charge. What is required is a gaine, but presumably we had enormous stocks of 44s (which you'll see has a C.E. filled magazine) so these were used.

TimG

 

[MINENAZ16]

Hello Alpini,

Combination 80/44 (or 85/44) is a little bit confused because there were two families :
The story says :

-At the begining of the war, because of an urgent need of percussion fuzes for 18pr and lot of stocks of rejected No44, T&P No 80 were used as percussion fuzes with No 44 as detonator, booster and safety device.
This complicated combination was used very shortly.

-No 80 were used too for 18pr and 3in HE AA shells but with percussion device removed (time fuze only) and associated to No 44 as detonator, booster and safety device.
No 44/80 were modified (different spring for shutter to arm at different rotation speed).
Without apropriate gaine with safety device, I assume No44 was a good solution.
No accident when unexploded shells fell as No 80 percussion device was removed and No 44 shutter was not in line anymore (slow down rotation speed).

Regards

T&P 80/44




Time No 80/44

 

[TimG]

Further diagrams

I note I was incorrect re the Gaine, it's actually a No. 11 Adaptor with a No. 2 Gaine.

TimG

 

[Alpini]

Many thanks to both of you!

So this percussion fuze was simply used as a gaine because it was available in large quantities. But if I understand the construction, with this combination the percussion fuze's percussion mechanism becomes unuseable and just it's security mechanism and gaine was used. The shell will not explode on impact and only by the time fuze.

 

[Wgreen]

Hi thanks to all for the info so is the no 11 adapter the next step after the 44/80 fuze or just an alternative option is there any difference in there function

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[TimG]

Alpini,

I think it was more suitability than availability. In the 80/44 combination the 80 is converted from Time and Percussion to solely Time by removal or conversion of the percussion arrangement. The 44's percussion mechanism, the striker disc, is operated by gas pressure of the 80's powder magazine igniting at the end of the time delay.

Wgreen,

The adapter and gaine were the logical solution following on from the use of the 44. It appears from Minenaz16's 6th image that at some stage, both methods were in use. With the gaine, the detonation is started by ignition from 80's powder magazine burning.
TimG

 

[Wgreen]

Thanks to all for the great info
So if I understand these fuze/adapters regarding 3"/13lb and 18lb the object was to turn a H.E projectile into a A.A proj ? Maybe a silly question but why when they have shrapnel shells also with the percussion element removed if the time function fails then you have a live projectile falling back to earth ,were these just for use over built up areas or over our own troops where you at all cost do not want a projectile to explode on contact with the ground thanks again

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[MINENAZ16]

My doc says 3in AA Shrapnel are fuzed fuze No84 (no problem when time function fails because of the safety shutter of percussion device).
I only found unexploded fired 3in AA shrapnel with No80 and No85 but I never unscrewed to see inside (!) and no external markings to help. Could be time 80/44 (85/44) or 180 (185). I don't know.
You are right, I don't think they fired AA shells with a T&P fuze without safety device to prevent accident on friend troops.


Herewith another adapter made for 18pr HE (not shown in previous diagrams). This big brass adapter is screwed on the top of the shell.
It could not be confused with a shrapnel adapter because it's much bigger and taller.
The modified 44 fuze is directly screwed into this adapter, in contact with base of the fuze head.

 

[AE501]

Originally, the GS thread was approved for use by the Royal Navy for use in the 19th century. They were the main users of heavy guns to fight iron clads and iron ships. This tapered thread enabled them to change between plugs and fuzes rapidly. The guns were first exposed, then put in barbettes, which had some overhead cover, before turrets were introduced. Some guns were Muzzle Loaders (ML), then Breech Loaders(BL) and back to ML again, for the heavier guns, due to breech explosions.
Once the interrupted breech screw was introduced they reverted to BL. In the meantime there were quite a few calibres which stayed in service through WWI. It was decided that future production of larger shells should standardise on the Plug Fuzehole 2 inch, which had parallel sided threads.
Because there were vast stocks of shells remaining after WWI, it was decided that adapters should be produced to convert existing stocks of GS threaded shell to take the 2" threaded fuzes.
The main light field artillery piece, right up to WWII was the 13 Pounder and the medium piece was the 18 Pounder. These stocks were so adapted.
The heavy coastal defence artillery piece, obtained from the RN was the 9.2". This took the GS threaded Fuze No. 45P and several types of adapter were made for these shells, on the one hand to continue to use the large stocks of Fuzes No. 45P and the other, to take the later Fuzes No.s 117 and 119, which 2" fuze hole types.
The 9.2" gun was sent to Australia, New Zealand etc. and continued in service until sometime after the end of WWII.

 

[TimG]

Some dates for AE501's post -

The No. 44 is descended from the No. 13.

No. 13 Intro. 1895 Obsolete 1943

No. 18 Intro. 1910 Obsolete 1955
First UK fuze to have a CE filled magazine

No. 44 Intro. 1913 Obsolete 1959 (32 Marks)
The first UK fuze to use a centrifugally operated safety shutter. Early fuzes were very unreliable, mainly due to quality of manufacture. However, went on to become an exceptionally reliable fuze.

No. 45 Intro. 1914 Obsolete 1955 (24 Marks).

No. 45P. Intro. 1920 Obsolete 1955 (31 Marks)

The date obsolete doesn’t always reflect the true life span of a fuze. However, 1955 ties in with the end of Coast Artillery.

TimG

 

[lcn]

some pictures of a No9 adapter with a no 44/80 inside