1888 British Army Bugle , C & M 1888

[Gspragge]

I picked this up yesterday. I never see old one's like this. Usually unmarked civil use or just plain new copy things
and very often simply beaten to death. I would like to know if anyone has the regulation information to tie the cords
on properly. I am if it's affordable to see if some of the dents can be removed. I think it was released from British
stores for issue over here, but I don't know who or what C & M is exactly. Close to Canada Militia (Dept.) but not quite.

 

[ammofo]

FIRSTLY, nice bugle and I too wouldn't have a clue how to attach the cord properly........However, C & M is a mark I have spent countless hours investigating before and there are many theories out there which people will defend to the hilt - BUT they can't all be right, eh?
Some say it's a leatherworkers mark, which it may be but as with your bugle it appears on items made of other materials too.
Some say it stands for Civilian & Military, which it may well do, but I've only ever found people's belief in this rather than ANY hard proof. I've seen it mostly on military tools (which is an area of interest of mine) and many say it went out of use around WW1. This may also be about right but again without specific info it's hard to give a definitive date. I've seen it on 1913/|\ pliers, a pair of 1880's /|\ chisels, an 1880's wad punch, and an 1870's Screw Pate - that's just on items I've owned.
In researching this in the past I've also come across it on a Victorian military drum and I've even seen it on a large officer's mess brass coal scuttle which was also Broad Arrowed.
So the long and short of my answer is......I CAN'T TELL YOU FOR SURE !!
I'm 100% certain that it's not an exclusively Canadian mark and I personally doubt that it has ANY specific connection to Canada whatsoever.
Here's a few links to some of the tools described above...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132405107101?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132376917507?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649
It's a subject I'd love to get to the bottom of and look forward to any additions to this thread re the C&M mark.

 

[reccetrooper]

Have you tried contacting the bugle’s maker? They may have archive information that identifies C&M.
http://www.henrypotter.co.uk/

 

[reccetrooper]

A quick google found this site in which it says, “Often the arrow was accompanied by initials like BO for Board of Ordnance, WD for War Department or C&M for clothing munitions supplies”.

http://collectionsearch.nma.gov.au/printpdf/object/71310/print

 

[Gspragge]

This is quite interesting. It sounds like Clothing & Munitions supplies was perhaps a purchasing element of the War dept and it is so marked as accepted by them in 1888 . I have not seen this mark before over here and it would not be found on Canadian items. How ever this bugle also has the point to point release mark and I can't see how it would ever have been a "surplus" item as bugles were used for ever. But If Canada purchased bugles from the British War dept. which is not at all improbable such bugles would have a release mark on them prior to shipping. But that is as far as one can go with a Canadian connection as there are no Canadian marks.

If anyone has a pre 1900 copy of "Priced Vocabulary of Stores" which covers uniforms and such C & M might be explained therein. My 1915 copy which is mostly ordnance doesn't have this information.

The two ebay items cover a wide time span, 1871 - 1913. Maybe it also depends on how these items were taken into the War Dept. If they were inspected by this department they were marked, other things weren't like ordnance so we don't see it.

I can have the dents removed, so I am going to look into that, cost depending. A Musical instrument place says they can get them all out - haven't a clue how they do it - seems miraculous !

Quite the historically old firm. I will ask them if the War Dept purchasing element was C&M , they ought to know how to tie the cords as well.

 

[ammofo]

I think 'Clothes and Munitions' rings a bell as one of the other many suggestions out there on the web that I'd passed over as not quite fitting the bill. If we take it "literally" as they only dealt with clothes and munitions then the British would have looked pretty silly clanking across no-man's land wearing nothing but coal scuttles and chucking pliers at the Germans. Most of the suggestions out there sound good for an instant, but considering the array of items carrying this mark none of them quite fit. I dare say this will rumble on until (as you rightly suggest) someone can produce a small paragraph from an official document that leaves absolutely no doubt. Chasing such minute details might seem pointless to many, but I think we have a duty to make sure these details are passed on rather than lost.

 

[Dronic69]

Hi Gordon,

I'm not sure if you had any luck re finding how to attach the cord, however today I came across one which had the cord "attached" - certainly not 100% sure if tied correctly or not.............

If you examine the photos, it appears the cord starts mid-point at the mouth piece end and uniformly criss-crosses over each end until it is tied /knotted for where the tassels hang.

Funny first bugle I have seen for a long time - I believe it is post war (~1949 onwards) and it good condition, albeit one of the tassels has seen better days.

Certainly not my cup of tea, but reasonably priced @ $55 AUD ( which is approx. $5 USD Hahaha) Anyone interested let me know as it is still available.

Cheers
Drew

 

[Gspragge]

Thanks, my cord is a bit different having a long central braided section. It was used to carry the bugle which from the looks of it was carried from the shoulder upside down.

 

[reccetrooper]

I played a bugle back in the 1970’s, and have just dug it out of the loft where it has been for the past 14 years.

There are other ways of tying the cord onto a bugle, but this seems to be the most common way for a bugle that can be worn slung.

Lay the cord lengthways along the seam of the lower tubes and form a loop (third photo), allowing about 20 inches of cord from the tassel to where my thumb is in the photo. Wrap the cord around the tubes tightly keeping the start of the loop in line with the seam between the tubes. Wrapping it around three or four times is common. On the last wrap pass the tassle end through the loop. Tighten the loop by pulling on the middle part of the cord.