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experimental Mills grenade
- Thread starter ludokhan
- Start date
New Zealand manufactured very nice to see another..... Dave
It's from the Canadian War Museum photo gallery
www.warmuseum.ca/collections/artifact/1990598/
Some other odds and ends
http://www.warmuseum.ca/collections/search-results/?q=experimental+grenade&per_page=25
The well known grenades can be found by putting in the usual search terms.
www.warmuseum.ca/collections/artifact/1990598/
Some other odds and ends
http://www.warmuseum.ca/collections/search-results/?q=experimental+grenade&per_page=25
The well known grenades can be found by putting in the usual search terms.
Spaceinvader
Well-Known Member
The Canadian War Museum is really fantastic, ive seen some gripes about it here and there but I love it. They have an amazing collection (as seen on the website), just a shame as usual 90% of it will forever be in storage.
correct snufkind, and they actually possess very beautiful specimens and offers to their visitors the possibility of obtaining archives of very good quality. (Digitaliser)
nevertheless one can observe some errors in the legend of ammunition (not exact, dates, etc ...)
nevertheless one can observe some errors in the legend of ammunition (not exact, dates, etc ...)
Some interesting grenades and odd or incomplete captions. Do they not know what these grenades are?
John
Spaceinvader
Well-Known Member
Much of their collection is in storage, and has not been ID'd. The museum is run by donations and volunteers for the most part with only a small dedicated staff.
I have seen this kind before, but it was suspected of being a made up fake --
now in a U.S. collection, previously the "Schmitt " Museum/archives or what ever
it is called - It would be interesting to many I think to see all of this one, maybe it's good !
now in a U.S. collection, previously the "Schmitt " Museum/archives or what ever
it is called - It would be interesting to many I think to see all of this one, maybe it's good !
Attachments
Hi.
That’s a nice one. Made by Booth MacDonald in 1942 (Christchurch NZ). These were experimental, but never actually adopted. They work on a very simple setback and off cause do not need to have a disk attached for use from a cup discharger. One of those designs that on paper look quite promising, until you consider that you are only saving the user from screwing on a base plate and end up with something that can only be fired from a rifle. Cheers
That’s a nice one. Made by Booth MacDonald in 1942 (Christchurch NZ). These were experimental, but never actually adopted. They work on a very simple setback and off cause do not need to have a disk attached for use from a cup discharger. One of those designs that on paper look quite promising, until you consider that you are only saving the user from screwing on a base plate and end up with something that can only be fired from a rifle. Cheers
It was a solution to a potential requirement, that of being able to patrol with a No.36-type rifle grenade loaded into the discharger cup, ready for immediate use. (Existing Australian records show the Australians and New Zealanders proposed modifications to Mills-type grenades for every imaginable operational use.)
The standard No.36 rifle grenade was loaded into the discharger cup only immediately before firing from a static position, as it was too dangerous to carry it around loaded. If the rifle caught on something or if the carrying soldier was wounded or killed, the grenade could fall out, the safety lever release, and then the grenade explode seven seconds later, to the detriment of surrounding friendly troops. This modified No.36, required a significant kick from set back to fire the igniter set*, and could be safely carried on patrol placed in the discharger - the striker was unlikely to set back if the grenade simply fell to the ground.
As Fragman points out it was only a rifle grenade and not a hand grenade, so the logistics disadvantage of having another store, especially when the 2" mortar was increasingly displacing the No.36 rifle grenade anyway, meant the modified No.36 did not progress. Also whether the set back mechanism was totally proof against a grenade falling without incident from the discharger cup was probably not confirmed.
*In WWI troops had on occasion launched No.23 rodded Mills grenades which had been stripped of pin, lever and striker spring, so using set back of the striker onto the percussion cap to set the fuze burning. The extract of a relevant order from ANZAC records is attached.
The standard No.36 rifle grenade was loaded into the discharger cup only immediately before firing from a static position, as it was too dangerous to carry it around loaded. If the rifle caught on something or if the carrying soldier was wounded or killed, the grenade could fall out, the safety lever release, and then the grenade explode seven seconds later, to the detriment of surrounding friendly troops. This modified No.36, required a significant kick from set back to fire the igniter set*, and could be safely carried on patrol placed in the discharger - the striker was unlikely to set back if the grenade simply fell to the ground.
As Fragman points out it was only a rifle grenade and not a hand grenade, so the logistics disadvantage of having another store, especially when the 2" mortar was increasingly displacing the No.36 rifle grenade anyway, meant the modified No.36 did not progress. Also whether the set back mechanism was totally proof against a grenade falling without incident from the discharger cup was probably not confirmed.
*In WWI troops had on occasion launched No.23 rodded Mills grenades which had been stripped of pin, lever and striker spring, so using set back of the striker onto the percussion cap to set the fuze burning. The extract of a relevant order from ANZAC records is attached.
Attachments
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John,
I don't know that it was a revival of experiments from one war to the next.
The Royal Engineers Experimental Section in WWI produced a prototype hand and rifle Mills grenade adaptation with two cast gas check bands, but using the conventional lever, spring and striker. It simply did away with having to provide a separate gas check disc.
The crucial difference of the WWII New Zealand adaptation was the use of an inertial (set back striker) firing mechanism, which certainly some ANZAC troops had acquainted themselves with during WWI, and clearly that experience made itself known again in WWII. In the modified No.36 there is a hole through the top of the striker and top dome of the body which may be for a pin, but possibly more likely a shear wire, so it was perhaps a somewhat safer arrangement than that used by the ANZAC troops in WWI.
Tom.
I don't know that it was a revival of experiments from one war to the next.
The Royal Engineers Experimental Section in WWI produced a prototype hand and rifle Mills grenade adaptation with two cast gas check bands, but using the conventional lever, spring and striker. It simply did away with having to provide a separate gas check disc.
The crucial difference of the WWII New Zealand adaptation was the use of an inertial (set back striker) firing mechanism, which certainly some ANZAC troops had acquainted themselves with during WWI, and clearly that experience made itself known again in WWII. In the modified No.36 there is a hole through the top of the striker and top dome of the body which may be for a pin, but possibly more likely a shear wire, so it was perhaps a somewhat safer arrangement than that used by the ANZAC troops in WWI.
As for documentary evidence of experimental and developmental work carried out in Australia and new Zealand, Australia is blessed with a vast - albeit greatly dispersed - archive of information. I have managed to find a single WWII Australian reference to a Mills rifle grenade development that can be safely carried in the discharger cup (and which I'm struggling but hoping to locate in my files), but I'm sure there is more to be found.
Tom.
Here's one I have in semi relic condition . No details known to me but Tom may have some info ? The base plug is one of those 1917 dated Morum & Co No 5 . I don't know if this is original to the grenade but Morum did a lot of work on Mills developments . It's of much more substantial construction than a standard grenade & the centre tube [can't remove it] is a standard WW1 No 36 type . I hope this is of interest & maybe we might learn some more about it . Mike .
Mike,
Other than sharing some similarities with the RE Experimental No.36 Rifle Grenade (drawing attached), I don't know what information exists about that example with the integral cast gas check band. If any information still exists then the person that dug it out the ground might have it.
Tom.
Other than sharing some similarities with the RE Experimental No.36 Rifle Grenade (drawing attached), I don't know what information exists about that example with the integral cast gas check band. If any information still exists then the person that dug it out the ground might have it.
Tom.
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