Martini-Henry unit identification disk

[Bellifortis]

Hallo,
the attached foto is supposed to be a unit-identification-disk on the butt of a Martini-Henry rifle. Can anyone read the info on this ?
A Merry and peaceful Christmas to you all,
Regards,
Bellifortis.

 

[reccetrooper]

I suspect it is an Afghan/Pakistan/Khyber Pass made Martini. The markings are nonsense.

 

[Bellifortis]

That's interesting. I was not able to place the item. About 45 years ago, one of the largest departmentstore chains here in germany, Karstadt, must have bought up a huge quantity (many thousands or even tens of thousands of pieces) of quite old oriental arms (swords, daggers, pistols and rifles)that originated from India, Afghanistan and arab countries, all mixed up. At that time all the big windows of the department store were decorated with these deco-items for sale. A 100 years ago England was the only country that had power in those countries. Where and by whom could such a huge quantity of historical oriental arms have been stored for such a long time to be sold off at last in the 1970s ? Many of these items were in a quite strongly used, beat up state. The bore of the Martiini rifle seemed to be 8,2mm. I do not know any cartridge that would fit. The old black powder cartridges of the Martini-henry had a calber of 11,4mm. what kind of cartridge would fit the 8,2mm or thereabouts. Being rusty and beat up it is difficult to take precise measuremenst.
Merry Chrismas,
Bellifortis.

I suspect it is an Afghan/Pakistan/Khyber Pass made Martini. The markings are nonsense.

 

[reccetrooper]

Large quantities of antique arms have been coming from private or Government arsenals in India and surrounding countries for many years. Companies like World Wide Arms in the UK and International Military Antiques in the USA have been selling these arms for decades. Some time ago the arms from the arsenals of Nepal were purchased and released onto the collectors markets, there was even a book and a film made about this. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1yHOmgU4Afs
http://www.worldwidearms.com/
https://www.ima-usa.com/collections/original-antique-guns

More recently, servicemen have acquired antique arms from Afghanistan and taken them home as souvenirs. There are numerous threads about Afghan Martinis and Afghan Sniders on various US gun forums.

If the gun you have is from one of the areas around the Khyber pass, it is probably hand made, and dimensions might not be very accurate. How big is the chamber compared to a .303 case? It might be intended as a copy of a Martini-Metford / Martini-Enfield. A .303 lead bullet is around .312 inches.

Ammunition for the Khyber guns is handmade in the same region using handmade cases that might not be the same size as western factory ammunition. I recall reading in a magazine article c.1980 about chopped up cellulose cinema film being used as propellant.
There was a thread on here previously about an Afghan/Pakistan handmade Martini-Henry case, note the size difference, http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/97449-unknown-headstamp

 

[Dronic69]

Could you post a photo of the trigger assembly?

The Khyber Pass Copy ones are of "rough" construction compared to the British made ones

Thanks
Cheers
D

[h=1][/h]

 

[Bellifortis]

:tinysmile_classes_tThank you so much for those most interesting links. It is incredible that such treasures are hidden in oriental countries. Only a royal family and the army can keep such huge amounts of high quality metal uselessly lieing around for 100dsd of years. In that part of the world old metal still is valuable. Every piece is reused. Broken truckaxles are turned by knifesmiths into beautiful knifes and even empty tincans are cut open and turned into spoons and other cutlery for poor peoples use. I really appreciate this recycling, as I live in a throw-away society that does not think about the amount of work involved in a metal part. My hometown is an ironore mining place for 2000 years. The largest mine closed down in the late 50s after they dug down to more than a 1000m to reach more ironore. That was too expensive compared with the brazilian strip mining. Regarding the rifle: I can not measure the chamber, because it is plugged (deco). The dia seems to be around 15mm. The bore is a bit larger than.303 british. Now I'm nearly shure that it is a Pathan rifle, also because of the typical ornamentation. first I was not shure, because other arab countries also use ornamentation on their guns. You only speak of Martinis. I only know these guns under Martini-Henry. Attached are some more pictures so the model can be narrowed down more precisely.

 

[reccetrooper]

Looking at the photos I think it is either a Pathan made rifle, or possibly a commercial made (civilian) rifle that has been decorated in the region.

I came across an excellent site that describes the different models of British military Martini Henry/Metford/Enfield rifles, history, etc.

http://www.martinihenry.org/