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Hedgehog

Seems to be same designation for British use (7.2in Hedgehog) fuze No 420. (spigot mortar)

Hedgehog_ASW_projectile_diagram.jpg7.2.jpg
 
Minenaz16,

The propelling charge on the drawing in your post is 260gr (16.8 grams).

I think that would be too small for a rocket.

from the first post the US rocket was a Hedgehog warhead with a new rocket motor. I have not seen any information about the rocket in British use, only the mortar round
 
Minenaz16 is looking at the same one I am. The US Hedgehog was an anti-sub Rocket. However you can see the MK number on the second picture, what was the NO used?

In OP 1664: https://maritime.org/doc/ordnance/pg176.htm
You can see the chart that brought on this question. I know the US and UK shared items throughout the war. In this chart you see us calling the 7.2 inch rocket NO 208, 211, 212, 213, 216 and 217. I would think these were UK designations that we were using at the time, but I cannot verify this.
 

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Hedgehog - Spigot Mortar,
Mouse Trap - Rocket, 'Hedgehog' warhead on a rocket motor. As far as I'm aware, the Royal Navy never used 'Mouse Trap'

TimG
 
As far as I know Hedgehog projector was developed by Royal Navy (24 spigot mortars)
I don't know details about British use of 7.2 projos but in US it's a little bit confused.

What I understand :

-Land service : 7.2 with rocket mortor projectile with base fuze (moustrap system)
-Navy : 7.2 projo with head fuze for mortar spigot Hedgehog system
-Navy : 7.2 with rocket motor and head fuze or base fuze for moustrap system


7.2 rocket moustrap Land Service base fuze (T37):

t37.jpg



7.2 rocket Navy (base fuze) moustrap :

navy base fuze.jpgnavy base fuze rocket.jpg



7.2 rocket with head fuze :

7.2.jpg7.2in.jpg




7.2 spigot mortar Navy projo with head fuze (Hedgehog system) :

us hedgehog mortar.jpgus hedgehog.jpg



Picture with 7.2 rockets, first head fuze, second base fuze :

DSCF5138 - Copie.jpg
 
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Mineaz16,

I think you are correct.

As I understand it, the USN used both the Mousetrap rocket and the Hedgehog mortar. The Royal Navy only had the Hedgehog mortar.
 
If you can get hold of `Churchill's Ministry of ungentlemanly warfare' it talks about the development of the Hedgehog. The system could throw forward a pattern of spigot mortars in roughly the shape of a rugby ball. The figure of 24 (thanks Minenaz) rings a bell. The book mentions test firings in the grounds of a large country house, must have been good fun.
 
Quite possibly Coates Castle, West Sussex. The property was requisitioned during WWII and used by Lt. Col. Blacker where he apparently invented the 'Blacker Bombard' a spigot mortar infantry weapon. Hedgehog was development of the Blacker Bombard.

TimG
 
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Quite possibly Coates Castle, Chichester, West Sussex. The property was requisitioned during WWII and used by Lt. Col. Blacker where he apparently invented the 'Blacker Bombard' a spigot mortar infantry weapon. Hedgehog was development of the Blacker Bombard.

TimG

The Firs at Whitchurch was used for firing trials of the Hedgehog and much of its development was done there. The Firs was the home of MD1 (Winston Churchill's Toyshop) and under Colonel (later Major General) Millis Jefferis MD1 were responsible for a number of advances in explosive technology such as shaped charge and squash head warheads. Spigot weapons such as The Bombard, the Plate Mortar, PIAT and Petard were developed at Whitchurch. Lt Col LVS Blacker, inventor of the 29mm Blacker Bombard, introduced the spigot concept to MD1 and was attached to their staff while the Bombard idea was 'productionised'. It was subsequently produced in large numbers and issued to the Home Guard.

The Royal Navy had a similar organisation to MD1 called the Department of Miscellaneous Weapons Design (DMWD or Wheezers and Dodgers) and one of its number, Commander Goodeve, knew Jefferis. It is a fairly long story getting from Goodeve locating himself and some other DMWD personnel to Whichurch to work on Hedgehog to an impromptu demonstration to Churchill in the field/range behind The Firs (which kick started serious interest by the senior officers holding the purse strings in the RN) . The story is well told in Gerald Pawle's book about DMWD called The Secret War 1939-45 and published by Harrap in 1956. Hedgehog is also mentioned in Macrae's well known book 'Winston Churchill's Toyshop'.

All three of those mentioned above made claims to the Royal Commission on Awards to Inventors after the war for their contributions to the development of spigot weapons.
 
Bonnex,

Is the link between Lt. Col. Blacker, his Bombard and Coates Castle completely totally fictious?

TimG
 
Glevum,

I have, thank you. Which was why I was curious as to their being any truth in the connection. Unfortunately, obituaries are a précis of someone's life and sometimes facts get corrupted. I know Bonnex has carried out a lot of research in regards of MD1. Also, if I remember correctly, has met the Blackers.

TimG
 
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Bonnex,

Is the link between Lt. Col. Blacker, his Bombard and Coates Castle completely totally fictious?

TimG

Tim,

Sorry for the delay. You now know from the obit that Blacker lived at Coates Castle near Petworth. By chance when I was researching MD1 I found myself staying with a friend next door to where Blacker lived but there was no evidence of his experimentation. It was a different story when David Blacker invited me to his large country house near Liss in Hampshire. In the basement of the house were two or three tons of Blacker's hardware including several PIATs, a two-inch mortar converted to fire PIAT bombs and a 3-inch recoilless anti-tank gun. It was a real treasure trove. Over time I managed to interest the IWM in the hardware and I think they took it all. Between the wars Blacker invented a number of spigot devices including an SMLE attachment that launched a hard rubber projectile that could be filled with a Nobels lachrymator. He tried to interest the Navy in a spigot weapon in 1930 so I think there is a link between Blacker, Bombard type weapons and Coates Castle.

Macrae and Jefferis both found Blacker a very difficult person and it is clear that Jefferis was pleased to see the back of him when the Bombard became a service item. After the war Blacker submitted a claim to the Royal Commission on Awards to Inventors on the subject of spigot weapons. The Secretary of the Royal Commission wrote to Jefferis (by this time he was Engineer in Chief, Rawalpindi) with questions concerning Blacker's claim. A copy of Jefferis' reply, in possession of the family, makes interesting reading. Salient points are:

That, by his account, it was Jefferis who:

designed the bomb for the Bombard
designed a shoulder gun that became the PIAT although he acknowledges Blacker's explanation of the principle of spigot weapons
was not involved in the development of the Petard (Flying Dustbin)
designed the Hedgehog projectile
introduced the idea of using a hollow charge projectile for the PIAT

All of which were subject to claims by Blacker.
 
Joe, don't know if the British used them. If you have access to OP 1002, 30 November 1943, it goes in to the launchers, ammunition and how they are situated on the ship. Another thing that I vaugely remember was that a system adapted from the "Mousetrap" or "Hedgehog" was tested as a beach clearance weapon to detonate beach and land mines, much like the line charges of today. The warhead was fixed with an extender to set off the warhead above the surface, like the "Daisy Cutter" extenders were used on the "Cheeseburgers". Fired from a landing craft akin to an LCU. Did moderate damage to the LCU if I remember right. Cheers, Bruce.
 
Norman,

Thank you very much for the above. I was unaware of the animosity between Blacker and Jefferis. It appears MD1 very much let themselves down post war, claiming rewards for their inventions.

Bacarnal,

There was an adaption of Hedgehog called Hedgerow. Which was Hedgehog with a fuze extender, fired from a landing craft for the purpose of clearing mines and obstacles during the Normandy landings.

TimG
 
Thanks everyone ... interesting discussion. And you are right ... we are used to just calling them "Hedgehog" when the Navy rocket versions were "Mousetrap"

Joe
 
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