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WWI anti torpedo net

As the forum's resident film critic, surely you've seen "The Sound of Music"?

TimG
 
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Actually, no. But I've been to Stow, Vernont, to the hotel ran by the Trapp family. I may also shock you by saying I've never seen "Casablanca". Nobody is perfect, and I am one of them.
 
About the caption: given the deck height on the waterline and the lack of protection and armament, the pictured ship is not a battleship but a light cruiser.
Torpedoes impacting the net did not blew up on most occasions, they were trapped in the net until the motion depletion.
During WW1 submarines used to hunt on high water, the main threat for ship anchored in roadstead were torpedo boats, the which being fast and manoeuvrable used to sneak into the harbor defenses in order to penetrate and hit.

Nets deploying and recovery was a time consuming operation, because of this and to the introduction of torpedo fuses implementing net cutters, were discarded pretty soon.

Net cutters fuses in service in the Royal Italian Navy were mainly of two types, the early "a coltelli" (knives) and the late "a cannone" (cannon), below pictures and drawings of the two kinds.
 

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Hello Matteo,

Where was the picture of the "Acciarino Taglia" taken?
Thanks
Cheers
Drew

BTW:-
Yes Frances Von Trapp was Robert Whitehead's granddaughter and died of Scarlet fever before Maria was initially employed as a tutor for one of the children.

I had the great opportunity and pleasure in meeting both Frances's granddaughter (Johanna) and great granddaughter (Sheila) in Rijeka back in 2016.

They have recently established a foundation - honoring the von Trapp and Whitehead heritage:

www.georgandagathe.org
 
Drew,
Whitehead like in a torpedo name? And how did they get to Croatia? I thought they all moved to the USA. But, since I've never seen the film, I am the last to question Von Trapp family affairs.
 
Drew,
Move the torpedo conference to Miami, and you shall not regret it. And there is ocean water around too.
 
Hello Matteo,

Where was the picture of the "Acciarino Taglia" taken?

Hi Drew,

the (terrible) picture of the Acciarino Taglia Reti was taken at the Italian Navy Technical Museum of La Spezia, it is the only known sourviving sample. The drawing comes from the Royal Italian Navy monograph on the A60/356x4.920, which was like the A60/450x5.023 but with a "Woolwich" tail instead of a "Fiume" tail.
This particular device was to be fitted on A60/356 only, of the which 62 were purchased by the Royal Italian Navy (s/n ranging from 7028 to 7089) between 1899 and 1900.
The device was developed by a worker of the Royal Arsenal of Venice during 1886, Bellemo, and was effective against the ship nets made out of metal of the British company Bullivant, at the time the most advanced company producing net defenses.
To be noted that early nets were made out of hemp fibres, hence the very first expedient employed in order to let the torpedo reach the hull were saws profiles on the torpedo nose that used to cut the net by using the torpedo motion and mass alone; the introduction of metal made nets forced the developement of explosive cutters such as the Taglia Reti.
When anti torpedo net protection on ships was discarded, Bullivant developed the Double Corrugated Net the which being very heavy introduced the harbor boom defense, ie it was not anymore the ship wearing the nets but the latters were layied on roadsted entrances, the boom defense.
Against this heavy harbor defense the early device was ineffective, for this reason Whitehead developed the Acciarino a Cannone, a very powerful ram able to hole the double corrugated net; this device was mainly fitted on weapons in use on fast torpedo boats (ie MAS).
Net cutting devices were actually private engineering efforts of the single navies (Cannone apart), developed under the highest secrecy in order to keep an advantage on the counterpart, which had torpedoes just effectives as their.

Attached a couple of pictures of the MAS 15 on display at the Vittoriano Memorial, both torpedoes are fitted with Cannone.
 

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Net cutting devices were actually private engineering efforts of the single navies (Cannone apart), developed under the highest secrecy in order to keep an advantage on the counterpart, which had torpedoes just effectives as their.

Hi Matteo,

A very interesting comment - is this documented anywhere highlighting that "net cutting attachments" development was undertaken by individual Navies?

(Apart from the Whitehead Cannone etc)

Certainly explains why there is virtual no documentation on net cutting attachments - and there were quite a few very interesting attachments produced!

Thanks
Cheers
Drew
 
Hi Drew,

sorry for the delay, traveling as usual.

It is written in Whitehead's book such as the one from 1936, in the weapons monographs of the Royal Italian Navy that highlights the internal developement and the confidential nature of the device and you can deduce this as well by the fact that the first net cutter produced by Whitehead was the "Cannone".
Around the net you may find references about similar devices produced by France and Japan, these informations most likely comes from the already quoted book that reports the very same. I believe I don't have any material about these, altough at least for France Schneider might being involved.

Attached a picture of a USN MkV from 1908 (Naval History and Heritage Command - NH84492), the sawtoothed profiles for hemp fibre nets were developed locally.
 

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Ciao, Matteo,
Thanks for the views of Italian Net Cutters. I am most interested in the first-it seems to have the saw-cutters sprung outwardly, and the front ends lock the percussion firing striker until the cutters are forced inwards. However, they are then forced outwards by the percussion caps, which would seem to lock the striker again. Also, flame from the caps would seem to be led to the main detonator? Also, the cutters have holes at the ends-perhaps to lock them closed to reduce drag when firing where there is no net to be penetrated.There is no safety vaned wheel either? Perhaps it might be possible to show all drawings and English translation of this clever design?
The Whitehead Cutter is described in British patent GB127607-fixed blades-unfortunately no drawing. Golsteyn, a Dutchman in patent-GB191103098 describes very well all the problems, and GB191203605 shows his second, which is obviously the same as the Cannone.
The British Navy were very secretive concerning these devices, calling them "Pioneers". The only image I have found showed fixed blades, having the leading edges shaped into hollow vees, with sharpened edges-like opened scissors. The strikers were mounted to slide inside holes formed inside the length of the cutter blades-I am not sure how a safety device was provided, unless a central striker with a vaned wheel was also provided, linked to the striker pins in the blades. Obviously the torpedo was more likely not to fire on impact if striking at an angle. Has anyone seen an English Pioneer?
Thanks for a most informative posting on a very secret area of Torpedo development!
 
Hi Sprockets,

glad you liked it, it’s a pretty rare device and the very first of its kind; unfortunately these two are the only drawings presented in the book, below you may find the (terrible) translation of the device’s description, paragraph 139, the other paragraphs being 138 introduction, 140 conservation, 141 piston’s striker preparation, 142 device preparation and 143 official regulations. If you would like to have further paragraphs translated just ask, but bear with me as I travel more than a nomad.
Alternatively since I’ve created an OCR pdf, you can try selecting parts of the text of your interest but the result will not be that accurate as the scan was not properly aligned; this PDF exceedes the weight limit so I cannot load it here, if you would like it drop me your email and I'll send it.

It is somehow strange to read that at Weymouth were still developing non explosive devices during 1917, while Bellemo’s “tagliareti” was designed during 1886 and the Whitehead “cannone” is from 1909.
Back in 1873, Robert WHITEHEAD and the head of the torpedo workshop of the Royal Italian Navy Arsenal in Venice, capt. TILLING, performed trials with a torpedo fitted with a conical shaped block of blades which gave bad results, also at Fiume W. privately experimented heads covered with thin teeth, also proved to be ineffective.

I’ve never seen an English Pioneer.


[139] DESCRIPTION

The net cutter device is represented in fig. 67-68. The striker is provided with four wings (N) sliding into likewise recesses machined into the casing. A copper pin (O) said breaking pin, passing through the casing, is destined to be cut by the striker when the torpedo impacts against a Ship’s hull.
Three equidistant knives (Q) are welded and secured by mean of a screw to the casing, along which three solid movable blades (K) are fitted, equidistant, provided with large teeth and very sharp. These ends with a teeth (n), which penetrates in a corresponding recess of the casing that allows them to rotate. The copper pin (z) fix their fore part to the casing.
Two of the blades, the ones that remains in the lower part, when the device is installed on the torpedo are secured to the back side of the casing by mean of a lead pin (l). Each blade, at one third of its length is surrounded and held by a small clamp, installed on the upper part of a piston (F) which slides into a recess (R) machined in the central brass body. To the internal end of the only piston (F’) which is empty, a blasting cap is screwed (T), containing the same charge of the kind in use on conventional fuzes and inside the piston the striker (D) may move, held in the upper part by a breaking pin made out of annealed copper(h).
A fan shaped safety bracket (u) prevents the upper blade to lower, until the torpedo drops in the water avoiding the unwanted movement of the striker (D), both during the device preparation and when the torpedo is inside its launching mean.
The central chamber of the body (H) is crossed by a tube (r) in the which the striker slides. Underneath it a blasting cap (G), similar to the blasting caps of conventional fuzes, is screwed with a leather sealing in the middle and explodes when the striker (P) is released because of the impact caused by the torpedo hitting a Ship’s hull, causing the ignition of the cap screwed underneath the body (H) hence the explosion of the weapon’s main charge.
The internal space (I) surrounding the tube (r) is filled with gunpowder which, when the device is prepared, is loaded trough a dedicated hole closed by a screw stopper (E) provided with a leather sealing.
The fine gunpowder has a weight of 12 grams and is packed into a cylindrical paper container painted in red with a water resistant paint.
 
The torpedo net cutter was in steady development in the Royal Navy from the late 1880's onwards; although I've never heard them be called 'Pioneers' before. The Vernon/Woolwich Arsenal actually had plans worked out for a practicable cutter by about 1890, which was thought to serve adequately well. Bellemo's device was trialled and found to be inferior to the British version; as was the explosive French torpedo net cutting device, plans for which were acquired covertly by the Admiralty. An explosive charge version of the cutter was proposed by a Mr Neat of the engineering firm Buck & Hickman in 1891, who then attempted to blackmail the Admiralty with it (unsuccessfully). Blade attachments were not uncommon however; I've attached a picture of Lieut. Hartford's 'Net Evader' variant.

https://i.imgur.com/w1fIyh9.jpg

Also, first poast?
 
This maybe of interest to your topic. This was found a long time ago onboard the German u-boat wreck U-20. Source: verdwenen in de Noordzee by Tomas Termote. It is a nettschneider for G-type torpedos 1917. The cardboard box and instructions where still readable after 80 years.
image.jpeg image.jpeg
 
The torpedo net cutter was in steady development in the Royal Navy from the late 1880's onwards; although I've never heard them be called 'Pioneers' before. The Vernon/Woolwich Arsenal actually had plans worked out for a practicable cutter by about 1890, which was thought to serve adequately well. Bellemo's device was trialled and found to be inferior to the British version; as was the explosive French torpedo net cutting device, plans for which were acquired covertly by the Admiralty. An explosive charge version of the cutter was proposed by a Mr Neat of the engineering firm Buck & Hickman in 1891, who then attempted to blackmail the Admiralty with it (unsuccessfully). Blade attachments were not uncommon however; I've attached a picture of Lieut. Hartford's 'Net Evader' variant.

https://i.imgur.com/w1fIyh9.jpg

Also, first poast?

Thank you, is it possible to see the papers about the trials on Bellemo's device? do you know on which model of net the trials were underwent?

This maybe of interest to your topic. This was found a long time ago onboard the German u-boat wreck U-20. Source: verdwenen in de Noordzee by Tomas Termote. It is a nettschneider for G-type torpedos 1917. The cardboard box and instructions where still readable after 80 years.

Thank you, of big interest indeed.
Given the good shape of the finding, the material was likely recovered before the scuttling by the Danish as the Unit was first grounded by the crew and spent some years ashore on the beach.
 
After three plus years of torpedo pistol design research, the only scant "net cutting" information I could find referred to either the Acciarino Taglia or the Whitehead Cannone as described above.

Later, after being all "torpedoed out" with the 2016 Rijeka Torpedo conference and the book publication, some interesting correspondence developed with Gert Anderson from the Jutland Sea War Museum in Thyboron, Denmark - he was able to organise to have on loan from the Danish Marine Storage some amazing Net Cutter attachments for the museum exhibition!

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This is once in a lifetime opportunity to see these amazing experimental net cutting attachments which I'm assuming as per Matteo comment, were undertaken in full secretive manner by the Danish Navy.

https://www.jdcon.dk/News/Sea-War-Museum-Jutland-is-now-a-reality

Don't Miss Out!!!

I have been attempting to get over there since July last year and will go later this year (February was toooo Cold!!!!)

My favorite is this one:

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Just un-fu*(&()& believable!!!

BTW - Photos are courtesy of the Jutland Sea War Museum.
 
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