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  1. #1
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    L21A4 baton rounds. Yes A4 not A1 !

    Found on a stall at the War & Peace show. From a distance I thought they were L21A1 cases into which someone had incorrectly put AEP batons, but they are not.

    The cases are all marked L21A4

    All are from the same lot and manufacture date, March 2016 Lot 002.

    The cases are all marked on the rear with the case supplier mark CCC and loaded by PSH. Case heads have individual numbers and all are fired.

    Given that the L21A1 was replaced in 2005 by the L60A1, and was withdrawn from operational, qualifying and zeroing use (to be used for training only), these rounds pose a few questions.
    Are the AEP batons correct for the L21A4 ?
    Are/were there also L21A2 and L21A3 variants ?
    What purpose does the L21A4 fulfil that the L60A2 doesn’t ?
    The latest date I have seen for an L60A2 is 01 2015 (Also by PSH with CCC case), could it be that the L21A4 is a replacement for the L60A2 ?



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    Wanted: Baton/Irritant rounds (inert) and associated items, .700 NE (inert) and boxes (empty), .32-40 cartridge boxes (empty), WW2 British shotgun cartridge boxes (empty), Greener Police Gun cartridge boxes (empty). Message me if you have any of these items for sale/trade.

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to reccetrooper For This Useful Post:

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  3. #2
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    Well I have now seen an L60A2 dated 09 2017, so the L21A4 does not appear to be a replacement for the L60A2.

    The lack of any wording indicating training use implies that the L21A4 is an operational round.

    One theory suggested to me is that the L21A4 might be for overseas operational use in areas of potential rioting, as they include the wording ANTI RIOT, which had been dropped from the later production L21A1, and doesn’t appear on the L60A1 or L60A2.

    Also noted is the wording doesn’t include AEP, so maybe the AEP batons are not correct for the L21A4. If they are not correct, what is? Has the old type of hard brown baton used in the L21A1 been reintroduced operationally (I think this is unlikely) or is there another as yet unseen baton type?

    If anyone has any information on these, please post it here or send me a pm.
    Last edited by reccetrooper; 28th July 2018 at 12:04 AM.
    Wanted: Baton/Irritant rounds (inert) and associated items, .700 NE (inert) and boxes (empty), .32-40 cartridge boxes (empty), WW2 British shotgun cartridge boxes (empty), Greener Police Gun cartridge boxes (empty). Message me if you have any of these items for sale/trade.

  4. #3
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    I pulled the AEP baton from one of the L21A4 and can now say that internally the L21A4 case is visually the same as the L60A2, with a reduced diameter section at the base that the baton seats against. The L21A1 case by BBB did not have this feature.

    The photo shows left to right, the internal view of L21A1 (BBB), L21A4 (CCC), and L60A2 (CCC) cases.


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  5. #4
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    I’ve learned that there was (circa 2008) an L21A2 variant that was developed for use in Afghanistan, so the theory that the L21A4 might be for operational use overseas seems feasible. I’ve not yet found any information on a possible L21A3 or the L21A4.

    L21A2
    (Information taken from an online report dated June 2008)
    The L21A2 is a reduced charge variant of the L21A1, to be used ONLY in the L127A1 Less Lethal Gun ‘Sideloader’ (H&K GLM 37mm fitted with EOTech 552 Holographic Weapon Sight) which was developed as a replacement for the L67A4 gun firing the L5A7 baton round, deployed in Afghanistan.

    Last edited by reccetrooper; 30th July 2018 at 03:33 PM.
    Wanted: Baton/Irritant rounds (inert) and associated items, .700 NE (inert) and boxes (empty), .32-40 cartridge boxes (empty), WW2 British shotgun cartridge boxes (empty), Greener Police Gun cartridge boxes (empty). Message me if you have any of these items for sale/trade.

  6. #5
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    I found two L21A4 empty cases recently in a container of the type used to package L21A1. It occured to me that an AEP round would not fit in this pattern of packaging, therefore the AEP batons that were in the L21A4’s that I found at War & Peace are obviously incorrect.
    I’m still seeking information on the L21A2, L21A3, L21A4, and L60A3, also empty cases or inert examples of these.

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    Last edited by reccetrooper; 24th November 2018 at 09:09 PM.
    Wanted: Baton/Irritant rounds (inert) and associated items, .700 NE (inert) and boxes (empty), .32-40 cartridge boxes (empty), WW2 British shotgun cartridge boxes (empty), Greener Police Gun cartridge boxes (empty). Message me if you have any of these items for sale/trade.

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  8. #6
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    Just picked up 2 of these at an antiques fair for slightly less than £4 each.
    William Mills - Thank you!

  9. #7
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    Have been following this with interest, still wondering what's the correct projectile for the L21A4 case, old brown hard batons or the new taller AEP ?

    47320259021_0b704517f3_b.jpg
    Last edited by DanTheMan; 8th March 2019 at 07:41 PM.

  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheMan View Post
    Have been following this with interest, still wondering what's the correct projectile for the L21A4 case, old brown hard batons or the new taller AEP ?

    47320259021_0b704517f3_b.jpg

    The thoughts amongst baton round collectors that I’ve corresponded with are that the AEP is incorrect for the L21A4.
    The reason for reintroducing the L21A1 in Iraq was because the AEP does not perform correctly in the climatic conditions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
    The two round plastic container packaging that was used for L21A1, if also correct for L21A4, cannot hold an AEP round.
    The L21A4 should be a variant of the L21A1, if it had an AEP it would more likely have been designated as a variant of the L60.

    it seems like a quantity of L21A4 have now appeared in the collectors market, but all I’ve seen so far are the same date and batch number. Maybe some L21A2 (developed for use in Afghanistan) and L21A3 will also start appearing.
    Wanted: Baton/Irritant rounds (inert) and associated items, .700 NE (inert) and boxes (empty), .32-40 cartridge boxes (empty), WW2 British shotgun cartridge boxes (empty), Greener Police Gun cartridge boxes (empty). Message me if you have any of these items for sale/trade.

  11. #9
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    not come across any L21A4 cases on the market yet but wouldn't have thought the AEP was correct - assume same projectile as L21A1 and the need for change in designation would be some small change i.e. in propellant charge etc?
    always looking for inert baton rounds and accessories - please message me if you have any for sale/trade.

  12. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by batonroundcollector View Post
    not come across any L21A4 cases on the market yet but wouldn't have thought the AEP was correct - assume same projectile as L21A1 and the need for change in designation would be some small change i.e. in propellant charge etc?

    We know the L21A1 and L21A4 cases are different internally, but no idea about differences with the L21A2 and L21A3 as no examples of those have turned up amongst collectors yet as far as I know.
    Wanted: Baton/Irritant rounds (inert) and associated items, .700 NE (inert) and boxes (empty), .32-40 cartridge boxes (empty), WW2 British shotgun cartridge boxes (empty), Greener Police Gun cartridge boxes (empty). Message me if you have any of these items for sale/trade.

 

 

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