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amazing no3 switch find

kiwieod

Well-Known Member
just when I thought that I wasn't going to find much in this country anymore I got this at our local gunshow on the weekend
the box is full of all 10 switches in very good condition
why does it have 2 lot numbers
B&P and kynoch? looks like it was made/loaded at 3 different places
 

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Hallo,
congratulation for this find in such a superb condition. May I ask what the asking price, at the show in NZ, was ?
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
 
B & P is Bloore and Pillar, Brass Foundry, Hockley Street, Birmingham, UK. They had quite quite a substantial factory.
They could have made the switch and even the empty Snout Switch Capped for IMI Kynoch under contract.
IMI Kynoch then made and fitted the cap.
Did they come with the snouts?
I did a post about mine on 22nd August 2017 and there is a snout shown by Millsbomber.
 
Nice find and amazing to see a full box in that condition.

I almost said "snap" when i saw the images, as I have a box that is just 3 batches later from the same manufacturer. Images attached. It came from the "well known online auction site" at a cost of just under £50. Unfortunately no switches inside mine though.
Dimensions 170x135x35.5 for the base nd 172x138x12 for the lid.

As I display my items I was interested to see Millsbomber's box in the above mentioned post. Much easier to recreate the wrapped No.3 switches with some balsa blocks (and cheaper too). I would be interested to see how the paper wrapper was folded. It looks to be someting like a thick unbleached tissue paper perhaps?

The final image shows the seven replica boxes I made for a my group's Aux Units display, as this is the number issued to a patrol. They are made from cut down Oxo tins repainted and with paper labels styled on ones seen on another post on this site. Much less trouble than making up a stencil. Covered with shellac to avoid the inkjet ink running in the rain if outdoors! Good enough to display as part of a large stack of crates, boxes, etc indicating the issue to a single patrol. The original box I think is deep bronze bronze green, a colour that tends to darken with age rather than fade. The brown impression on the original comes from a light layer of rust. The replicas are just a fraction too small to fit 5 No.3 switches in layer, but not likely to have enough to worry about this ever!

I'll post separately about the variations in the switches themselves.
 

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AE501 - For B&P, I've got Boon & Porter Ltd, 159 - 163 Castelnau, Barnes, SW13. They were agents for Riley motor cars. These switches could have been easily made with flypresses and their production was suited to small engineering concerns such as the numerous motor garages that undertook war work. For Bloore & Piller I have BP. However, I note, both companies' adverts use B&P as a monogram.

Kiwi - Don't overlook the MD1 stamped on the inside of the 'flap'


TimG
 
As promised - some thoughts on the No.3 Release Switch. Can't claim to be an expert but I haven't seen much about it written down anywhere.

There seem to be two types of switch body, one with a 5 part hinge and the other with a six part hinge. On the examples I have seen, the 5 part hinge is marked A21 and the 6 part A25 beneath the MD1 stamp on the innner face of the switch. I presume that this is just 2 different manufacturers.

There are also two spring types. The earlier type is just a leaf spring. The later type has a wire coil spring as well. I have seen it suggested that the wire coil makes it a No.3 Mk1, rather than just a release switch, but that seems at odds with the documentary evidence. rather it seems that the springs were added afound 1943/4. As part of an archaeology project I've dug a number of the coil spring type from an Auxiliary Units Operational Base site. This would have been abandoned at the end of 1944 and it is unlikely they would have received any new supplies after June 1944 at the latest. The same source also said the second flat leaf was added with the coil spring when the switches became service standard, though this seems to be wrong. If Millsbomber's box is completely original, then the coil spring is present from May 1943 at least.

The first mention I can find is the British Booby Traps pamphlet which is suggested to be around 1941. This shows a Release switch with six part hinge and a brass snout with a splayed base (are these Mk1 snouts?). It has the 2 leaf spring and no coil. Many extant examples have this spring configuration.

The Oct 1942 dated MD1 leaflet titled Release Switch has an image of a six part hinge switch with snout with the open blackened steel grip (MkIII). It also has a pin that appears to be a solid ring on a split pin as seen in the earlier posting. Possibly it is a split ring on a solid wire pin with a small loop. The National Army Museum have a similar pin in their example (sadly labelled a No.6 switch!) https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1987-03-33-1

The spring type doesn't appear to determine whether there is a 5 or 6 part hinge. Those with the coil spring seem to have one part pins. The design in Millsbomber's box, perhaps best called the "?" pattern seems the most common. There also a "P" type where the ring is to one side of the pin rather than central. Both seem to have the end turned to a blunt point to mke it easier to insert. Millsbomber's looks copper, but dull steel or blackened steel also are found. They were stowed inside the switch with the ring over the square bent brcket in the middle, and the end towards the snout mounting. The snouts must have been individually packed inside the switches as no space anywhere else in the box!

The descriptiom of these as the Switch No.3 Release Mk1 only appears later on. It ppears in the US summary of British switches. I've seen a box lbelled Switches Release from CRC in 10/43, then one from B&P labelled Switches No.3 in 12/43, which seems to date the change in description fairly precisely. I haven't seen any suggestion of Mk2 switch.

The US sheet describes them as Olive Drab, though whole books have been written trying to define that. It appears the switches were painted with British Deep Bronze green. I've never seen any in Service Brown. [Edit] There seem to be a small number in a paler olive green (thanks reccetrooper) see also http://www.deactivated-guns.co.uk/m...mando-sabotage-tools-equipment/prod_6841.html

Were any produced post war? I've seen a single example with a broad arrow and apparently no MD1 stamp. However, the No.6 switch seems to have replaced this in service, so there would be little need to keep making them. Anyone seen a box dated after 1943?

Happy to be corrected if you think I've got it wrong or have more information to add.
 

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AE501,no snouts in the box unfortunately and only 4 safety pins
TIMG,they have A.25 under the MD1 and are 6 hinge
 
Deep Bronze Green did not appear in UK ammunition and ammunition package markings until the 1950s at the earliest.
The Inter Service Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings 1948 Handbook only had BS381 Colour Number 225 Light Green or 224 Dark Green (Air Ministry Colour No 6). This was really our UK first effort at colour standardisation.
US were using Olive Drab as their standard colour for all sorts of things including vehicles and still do as far as I know.
 
Deep Bronze Green BS 381 24, BSC 381 224 (also called Dark Green or AM6) was the pre-war colour and standard early/mid war colour for steel ammo boxes. This changed to SCC2 Brown as mentioned in the attached linked document, then in late 1944 the Service Colour changed to SCC15, similar to, but not the same as US Olive Drab, though not sure any packaging was painted this colour. (It was adopted for vehicles so US kit didn't need repainting)
https://rnzaoc.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/raos-part-7-pamphlet-1-1942.pdf
I've a number of original ammo boxes displaying this colour.

So according to this document DBG would be the approved colour for a steel box as used for the Release Switches. The switches appear a similar colour, with caveats above. I've seen nothing to suggest any were painted Olive Drab, and as manufacture appears to have stopped before the colour was introduced, it seems likely none ever were.

British Army colour standardisation pre-dates WW1 and various manuals carry colour mixes from components from this era. WW1 kit was painted to standard colours, and I've seen paint matches from different pieces of original kit with hidden paint (no sun exposure) come up with near identical matches. Given that the ingredients varied in colour (e.g. linseed oil) it is clear they were looking to produce standard colours even then.

That said, I can't get two tins of DBG to match from modern suppliers!!
 
Anyone seen a box dated after 1943?

I have a box from May 43 with 5 hinged switches with leaf springs and spring snouts. All switches wrapped in silk paper as seen in the photo.
Switch_No. 3_Release Mk. I (2).jpg
Switch_No. 3_Release Mk. I.jpg
 
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CRC - Cravens Railway Carriage and Wagon Co., Ltd. Darnall, Sheffield.

TimG
 
To summarise so far (with thanks to all those who have shared images in this thread and previously.)
Switches are wrapped in paper (really grateful if either owner could post images of folds and the size of paper used as I will produce replicas for my display if you do)

We have surviving the following boxes & contents
Switches Release
B&P Lot 184 10/42 - 6 part hinge, with one part "?" pins
B&P Lot 187 11/42 - empty
CRC Lot 561 5/43 - 5 part hinge, with one part "P" pins
D Lot 458 5/43 - 5 part hinge , with one part "?" Pins
CRC Lot 605 10/43 - empty
CRC Lot ? ?/43 - empty

Switch No.3
B&P Lot 725 12/43 - empty

Deductions from the above
All boxes between 10/42 and 12/43 (14 months)
At least 3 manufacturers and at least 1788 lots (using highest listed lot)
If steady production rates, B&P making around 40 Lots/month, CRC around 9 Lots/month
The Switch release becomes No.3 Switch c11/43

Can others help further?
Do you have a box not listed above you could post images of please?
Anyone have a Release/No.3 switch NOT stamped A21 or A25 they can post images of? (Not sure that Millsbomber's box has this stamp - but image not quite sharp enough)
Which manufacturer is "D"?
How many boxes in a Lot?
 
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