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1000 year old Handgrenade ?

B

Bellifortis

Well-Known Member
I don't know if this is the right forum for a discussion of these items, or if they are too old to be of interest. I told in my introduction that I'm interested in the history of "Feuerwerkerei" down to the beginning. When a dear dutch friend told me, quite a few years ago, that he got an earthenware handgrenade, I replied that this is not possible, because an earthenware vessel filled with black powder would be just a big firecracker and would not have much effect. I think that he felt chastised with my disbelief. After buying it from him I started research on these vessels and even traveled to an appointment with Peter Pentz, one of the few people in europe that studied the subject, at the National Museum of Denmark in Kopenhagen. Between 1931 and 1938 a danish archeaological expedition excavated the citadel in the Syrian town of Hama (My heart is bleeding when I look at the news nowadays and the suffering in this cradle of all our civilisation). There they excavate a factory for the production of these vessels. These vessels are found mostly in Israel,Lebanon and Syria.There has been quite some research in the last hundred years, but as to my knowldge up till now, no definite proof of their use. The archeaological community is split, one faction believes they are Grenades, the other faction believes that they are Mercury containers.
Regards,
Bellifortis.Greek Fire Grenade.jpg
 
I'm not so sure these would have been produced as grenades, more like vessels for some other purpose, particularly as in the pics in the book behind, they have ornate decorations on the outside.
I guess the only proof would likely come from documented historical notes describing their use during warfare....if there is such a thing from that period and locality?
Ironically I studied archeology and got an A level in it, and I've never heard of porceline 'grenades' that would date back that far but I've seen plenty of very old porceline vessels like this from many different eras of ancient history.
 
The book is "Le Feu Gregeois" by Maurice Mercier,Paris 1952 who was a big collector and who tried to proof scientifically, by chemical examination and other methods, that these vessels are grenades. That is what this book is all about. There are many stories, brought over to us, from the times of the crusades. For instance the famous story, when the crusaders were besieging a town with their wooden assault towers and the defenders threw vessels that broke on the towers, but had no other effect. The besiegers started laughing at and making ridicule of the defenders. Then the defenders threw a lighted grenade at the assault tower, which instantly burst into flame completely and they shouted "Burn in the hither, so you don't need to burn in hell". According to Peter Pentz, most of these vessels have some more or less ornate marks. These can identify the manufacturer. These vessels are a very arcane subject that very few archaeologists are interested in and not something taught in general curricula.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
 
Missileman said:
I'm not so sure these would have been produced as grenades, more like vessels for some other purpose, particularly as in the pics in the book behind, they have ornate decorations on the outside.
I guess the only proof would likely come from documented historical notes describing their use during warfare....if there is such a thing from that period and locality?
Ironically I studied archeology and got an A level in it, and I've never heard of porceline 'grenades' that would date back that far but I've seen plenty of very old porceline vessels like this from many different eras of ancient history.
Click to expand...

Well if it is documented that they were indeed thrown in anger with an incendiary filling of some kind, then by definition they must be classed as grenades.

The question is, whether someone sat down and designed them for that purpose in the first instance, or whether they improvised at a time of desperate need to ward off invading forces and thus the grenade in this case was born form quick thinking necessity? I guess we'll never know?

Regards
 
Hi,
The initial purpose of these vessels was most likely oil lamps, often abundantly decorated, sometimes glazed. Of course, they could be easily used as an improvised incendiary grenades; explosive ones are highly unlikely by my opinion. They were used in quite large area of Eastern Europe, North Africa and West Asia. Here 2 more - first one is found in East Syria (dated XI-XII century AD), second one Bulgaria - Drustar (today's Silistra; Xth century AD).
13.jpg12.jpg
 
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Many years ago I read of Carribean pirates using improvised grenades of glass and pottery vessels filled with gun powder and scrap. This would have been around late 1600s to middle 1700s. Can't remember the reference.Seems reasonable that oil lamps could have been used also. Early Molotovs!!
 
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