140mm apfsds

[SG500]

Here's a few big purple things that may be of interest.
A sabot for a 140mm apfsds.
A 140mm apfsds proof shot
A 120mm G type P/shot for a 120mm
I'm interested in any further information on the 140mm.
Dave.

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

140 mm ?

Blimey Dave where do you turn up these items ?
I never even knew that there was a 140 mm calibre Gun let alone the experimental APFSDS rounds for it !

 

[SG500]

Yes it is a little obscure.
I'm sure someone out there has some info on it - any thoughts anyone?
All I have heard is that some of the tests had to be done on ranges in Canada because the ones in the UK weren't long enough!!
I suppose it would really spoil your day if one of those went through your house.
Dave.

 

[apfsds]

Very cool for sure! Your projectiles seem to be proof rounds for testing purposes and are not tactical? I think purple means experimental but not 100% sure. I know the US experimented with 140mm APFSDS-T rounds that also used combustible cases but the rounds were never adopted here. Either way, your specimens are awesome

Jason

 

[SG500]

Hi Jason, thanks.

The one on the left has had a dart in it at some time, unfortunately not now - its clear from the profile of the inside of the sabot.

The middle one is a flat head proof.

Yes, purple is used on a lot of British experimental rounds.

Dave.

 

[SG500]

Latest find

I've just finally managed to get the short version of the apfsds proof, doesn't look that pretty but its certainly a big lump of metal, makes the 120mm versions look like toys.
Dave.

 

[al'saad]

wasn't merkava IV mbt initially supposed to be equipped with 140mm cannon?

 

[SG500]

Hi al'saad, I'm sure I read in Janes that the Israel's had a 140mm in service. The one in the photos is the British development that never went into service. I understand the ranges weren't long enough in the UK so some of the testing was done in Canada (that's what I was told anyway, I'm sure some of you EOD guys can confirm that).
Dave.

 

[GI Zhou]

Dave,

I would love to have the dimensions and weight of the sabot if that is possible please. I translated a Chinese article on their 140mm APFSDS cannon mounted on the Type 99 main battle tank and it increased the weight of the tank considerably, from 50 to 60 tons. Further due to their large bulk, (approx 50% more than a 120mm round), only between 20 and 30 rounds could be carried in the Type 99. I do realise the Type 99 carries a 125mm gun. The 140mm armour piecing around (I am assuming the APFSDS round) has a 22MJ of energy compared to 11 MJ on the 120mm gun used on the Leopard 2A6/A6 and the heaviest round weighs 36.32 kg (80lb).


The length of the barrel to the vehicles width, when the turret is facing 900 from the centre, is reminiscent of the Chieftans 120mm gun. There is a fume extractor mounted midway along the barrel and no muzzle brake.

 

[SG500]

OK I'll do some measuring this weekend, won't be able to weigh though, the kitchen scales don't go up that far! Will do some photos comparing standard 120m apfsds sabot to the 140mm.
Have you any photos of the Chinese 140mm?
Dave.

 

[GI Zhou]

Dave, sorry no I haven't. I get the impression they used the US or UK 140mm round.

 

[GI Zhou]

I was told that the UK/US 140mm program wasn't continued with because the 120mm gun works well, hordes of Soviet armour roling through the Fulda Gap isn't going to happen, and the sheer bloody size of the round which reduced the amount that could be carried not counting the dust cloud etc upon firing. The end of the Cold War killed the program.

 

[SG500]

Dave,

I would love to have the dimensions and weight of the sabot if that is possible please. I translated a Chinese article on their 140mm APFSDS cannon mounted on the Type 99 main battle tank and it increased the weight of the tank considerably, from 50 to 60 tons. Further due to their large bulk, (approx 50% more than a 120mm round), only between 20 and 30 rounds could be carried in the Type 99. I do realise the Type 99 carries a 125mm gun. The 140mm armour piecing around (I am assuming the APFSDS round) has a 22MJ of energy compared to 11 MJ on the 120mm gun used on the Leopard 2A6/A6 and the heaviest round weighs 36.32 kg (80lb).


The length of the barrel to the vehicles width, when the turret is facing 900 from the centre, is reminiscent of the Chieftans 120mm gun. There is a fume extractor mounted midway along the barrel and no muzzle brake.

I've finally got around to doing the measurements - interesting reading, also see attached photos.

Each section of the 3 piece 140mm sabot has a weight of 2.25kg making a total weight of 6.75kg for the 3 pieces.
The length of the 140mm sabot 620mm
The rod diameter to go in the sabot would be about 25.6mm.
I estimate the length of the rod would be at least 910mm. This is based on measuring the length of the fin and the front of the 120mm dart that doesn't sit inside the sabot and adding the length to the 140mm sabot length - not an exact science but it does tell us it would have been a hell of a long dart.

The 120mm dimensions that I measured on the one in the photo are as follows:
Each of the 3 piece 120mm sabot have a weight of 1.25kg making a total weight of 3.75kg for the 3 pieces.
The length of the 120mm sabot is 275mm.
The rod diameter is 28.96mm (thicker than the 140mm one!)
Rod length including fin is 530mm

Hope this helps. Does anyone have photos of a complete 140mm apfsds dart or the charge that fired it/the gun etc. they can show? This thing really was a toy for the big boys!!!!!

Dave.

 

[Przezdzieblo]

Hello

There were (at least) two types of British 140 mm gun in similar time frame as American and Swiss guns. Designations: 140 mm EXP-38 prepared by RARDE and 140 mm Ordnance XN315P1 from Royal Ordnance Defence.

You would find attached two pictures of British 140 mm APFSDS with two different cartridges. I am affraid that I do not remember who orginally post those on TankNet board, but pics are rare and cool.

 

[SG500]

Great photos, that round must be a real handful to load.
Thanks for the information.
Dave.

 

[Eggburt1969]

I'm surprised anyone has any of these, though they would be littered over certain testing ranges in the UK (France, Germany, US). Most technical data of the 140 mm FTMA program is to my knowledge still classified, most likely secret.

You are pretty close on the length of the rod though.

Charges are two-part, too heavy to load otherwise. An image of a two-part RUAG 140mm charge is attached. Both APFSDS and HEAT-MP projectiles with wrap-around charges plus the main rear charge.

The most info you are going to get on the 140mm system is in a paper on the subject. The link to which is below.

http://aux.ciar.org/ttk/mbt/papers/...trators_in_rha_targets.lanz_odermatt.2000.pdf

For your info when one of these babies fired, you knew it!

 

[SG500]

Wow thanks for the pictures and information that's one hell of a dart!!
Dave.

 

[EOD]

Not to forget Rheinmetall's 140mm which got stopped long ago.

 

[Old_ROF]

Just to clarify there were four nations involved in the international governmental FTMA program. These were the USA, with France, Germany and the UK in Europe. The aim was to have common sets of parameters, with respect to the gun and ammunition, formulated and agreed as the basis for detailed design, development and testing by each of the countries governmental establishments and/or private companies. Each country bringing their own knowledge and experience to the designs for projectiles, charges, guns and mountings they produced for comparison and evaluation by the other member nations.

Other countries looked at 140mm systems, e.g. as mentioned earlier Switzerland, but were not part of this FTMA program.

Attached is a picture of the Royal Ordnance slave ordnance system undertaking ammunition development firing trials at a range in the UK.

 

[Eggburt1969]

That sounds about right to me. I remember US barrels being used, though no French or German ones.

That must have been quite early as I never saw one with a muzzle brake when I was testing them. Where is it, Kirkcudbright or Eskmeals? Doesn't look like Shoeburyness?