155mm Projectile, Need Some Help!

[pzjgr]

OK, I just put a thread up in the "Introduce Yourself" section, and as promised here is my first post in the regular sections...

Here is a link to a discussion we had on it over at the IAA Forum...

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9018

I will post the pics here too, but we are thinking its an Israeli projectile judging by the markings, and the lack of typical US markings on or above the driving band.

My problem is a standard 105 type fuze is too small to fit, and many documents I have come up with talk about a brazed in adapter, and if you look and current drawings you can see there is a fuze adapter/extended burster used in 155 smoke and chemical projectiles.

So my question for the big stuff guru's here, what do you think this shell is, and can anyone point me in the direction of an adapter so I can put this back together as a complete projectile, and restore it? I plan on repainting it as a standard M107 HE projectile, and have a proper M563 MT fuze to mount on it....

 

[HAZORD]

Discussion without measurements is a moot point and just random guessing. What is the diameter of the bore of the fuze well in the mouth of your projectile? It is most likely a WWII U.S. projo that takes the old flat adaptor and a WWII era fuze.

 

[pzjgr]

I took rough measurements of the opening diameter of the fuze wells on both my 105's and the 155...

They are (roughly) 1 7/8" for the 105's...the 155 opening is 2 1/4"...

 

[ordman]

pzjgr

Hello from the southern tier NY
I'm consulting with a fellow collector about your 155 round
We both are pretty sure it's not US manufacture
We may have and answer for you but we need to know how wide
the rotating band is.
We both looked at the 4th picture and above the star it looks like a britsh broad arrow stamp
That would seem to indicate a britsh made round
possibly a 5 inch or a 5.5 inch round
take a tape measure and measure the cirumference of the round above the rotating band divide that by pi 3.14 that will give you the diamearter of the round
a 155mm is 6.1 inches The threads in the fuze well are a different pitch too is it's british.
hope this helps
get back to me

 

[blu97]

I am not sure which country, but I am sure it is a 155 mm smoke WP projectile. The HE version always has a base plate welded on the base, smoke WP don't. As for your projectile you are missing the adapter and the burster tube.

 

[raymeketa]

pzjgr

Without getting into the origin of the projectile, I think the discussions back on the IAA Forum pretty well sum it up. Unless you can locate a proper fitting adapter or gaine (and a matching fuze) your best bet is to have one made with threads that match both the projectile cavity and the fuze you want to use. Any good machinist should be able to do that if he has access to the parts.

Ray

 

[pzjgr]

Ray, I agree, it was hashed out pretty good over there, but I figured someone here might be able to point me in the direction of an adapter, since there are a lot of big ordnance collectors on this board (IAA is awesome, but seems to be geared more towards SAA). Jason did hook me up with a guy in California who is a great guy, and has a lot of cool stuff I do need, but can't help me with the adapter either.

I also agree with Blu97, it is most likely a WP/Smoke/Chem projectile of some sort, and is missing the adapter/burster assembly...again, I gotta believe there are some out there, I just need to find it....or have one made if I can find someone with the skills and know how to do it....

Ordman...where in the Southern Tier? Its always good to know there is another ord collector somewhat nearby! I am pretty sure it is a 155, but will double check Monday since the projo is in my office sitting on my credenza with a bunch of other US Ord (people always drop their jaws when they walk into my office!), and I will measure the driving band and get back to you on that. The thing that looks like a braod arrow though, I think is part of maybe a manufacturers logo...if you expand the picture all the way, you can see its sort of an intertwined logo...there is that six sided star, and a pi (greek letter) stamped so thats what led John in California it may be Israeli.

 

[HAZORD]

Info required on early WWII U.S. Chem 155 Projectiles

I am still of a firm belief that it is U.S. made. It is exactly the same shape as the Pre WWII U.S. MK. I HE projo, except it has a later development rotating band. I have a projectile exactly like the one you have shown, same dimension nose thread. I also have the Mk. I HE projo of the same shape. If we go with BLU97's statement regarding base protection, then it is a WP/Chem projo of the earlier design shape.

I'm led to believe that it is a transitional projo, body shape of early design, but rotating band designed for the newer artillery that came out during WWII (the M1 Howitzer), which required stronger/larger bands. TM 9-1904 Ammunition Inspection Guide discusses the rotating band requirements (page 493) during the transition to the newer guns.

The hole in the nose of the mystery projectile is a different size (smaller) than the hole in the HE projectile. From the included info, I believe we need to find the measurements for, or and example of the Mk. VIB adapter booster, to check for fit and thread match.

So, I know we have some Chem guys out there, do you guys have any details on early WWII U.S. Chem projectiles, and components?

 

[pzjgr]

I saw the MkIII type booster in one of my WWII artillery ammunition TM's, that is what I was thinking I would need...I do not think the threads in the projo are tapered pipe threads.

When did the US start marking nomenclature info on or right above the driving band? As this projo has no markings there....the only real markings are what I showed in those few pics...Monday I also will use the M564 fuze I have to eyeball just how tall the adapter would have to be to produce a smooth continuous ogive....

 

[pzjgr]

A few observations I just made....the fuze well is definitely not tapered pipe threads, it is straight walled thread, the hole being 2.25" from thread tip to thread tip...

The driving band is 1 1/4" wide, with two grooves.

Base is flat, there is no protective plate welded on it.

I double checked the diameter, it roughly calculates out to 6.05", so unless it is some sort of 6" round, it must be a 155mm....

So I believe it is missing either the Mk III Booster/Adapter assembly (or equivalent) or the Adapter/Burster tube assembly for the smoke/WP type projectile...

So does anyone here have any idea where I can find one? Feel free to PM me if you have one, or know of one....

 

[blu97]

If you look inside of the projectile is there a blind hole in the base, if so it is a smoke wp round.

 

[HAZORD]

It is important to know, that the early WP projos had short bursters that did not go all the way to the base of the cavity, so even if it doesn't have a blind hole, it can still be a WP projo.

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

WP Smoke ?

I am going to go for the WP smoke option here as firstly the shell has no welded base plate, secondly the fuze well size is larger than the norm and thirdly the driving band is of a heavier duty than you would normally expect it to be for a standard HE shell !

Three examples shown below with the first one being from a 2 WW WP Smk shell which has a very heavy body (you might like to weigh yours?) with a "Heavy duty" driving band !

The second one is from a 1944 issue 155mm HE American produced shell and the third is from a modern (ish) 155mm Practice for the FH70 field gun-(note the simliarity of your band to the newer design).

Incidentally the empty shell body on a WP will be a lot heavier than the HE version-generally.

 

[wyngo]

Hi guys.
I quote Ordman because, for me, in a photo I clearly read the letters " B L 5 5" acronym of Breech Loaded 5,5in, even if the constitution of the driving band design doesn't correspond to the british standard.:neutral:
Best regard Francesco

 

[US-Subs]

If you look again, the markings appear to be 2BL556. The projectile does not have the profile or the charateristics of any 5.5-inch I have seen.

It does, however, have the profile and measurements consistent with the US manufactured MKII chemical projectile. Please note that during the period of manufacture the identification of "chemical" included smoke as well as lethal gases. What is the projectile length? MKIIs varied with who manufactured and the date, most we measured ranged from 580 to 594mm in length, with adapter. I have one which is 577mm without adapter.

Good luck in finding an adapter, this round takes the large hex adapter with the pipe-fitting (tapered) threads. I've been looking for one for 15 years, I know some folks have been looking longer. I also need one for my 4.7-inch chemical round. The adapters change size with caliber, the 75s are rarely seen, the larger calibers nearly never.

Here is a picture of my MKII for comparison.

 

[BOMBSaway1980]

is a M102???

 

[raymeketa]

From the comments posted here I can only assume that finding an original adapter or gaine is a long shot at best. I have made adapters for some of the big ordnance in my collection and I think that's the best solution. Any good machinist should be able to turn one out in an hour or two if he has the projectile in hand and/or a drawing or photo to guide him.

I've often wondered - what the heck happened to all of the adapters? There must have been one made for each projectile and you would think they'd turn up almost as often as the projectiles themselves. Many of the fuzes were likely destroyed but why the adapters? Maybe because they were small and readily sold as scrap?

Ray

 

[wyngo]

:wink: UsSubs...I saw the photos and thought I give to my hypothesis, the bullet is definitely American and contains the features that you have exposed ... it was only a hypothesis:angel:.
Good luck for your adapter!
Ciao Francesco