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2.8cm PzB41 date query.
- Thread starter SG500
- Start date
H
Hoeksel
Guest
I have 3 cases and a 4th on the way, my dates are:
1940, P345
1940, P?
1941, avu
1938, experimental (PN66f)
I have seen several experimental cases going back to 1938, but they are clearly marked differently. I can imagine that ammo was made well before official introduction but that is just a guess. At least in my collection I have 2 dated 1940 as well, so they are not rare I would say.
BTW; great set!!!
1940, P345
1940, P?
1941, avu
1938, experimental (PN66f)
I have seen several experimental cases going back to 1938, but they are clearly marked differently. I can imagine that ammo was made well before official introduction but that is just a guess. At least in my collection I have 2 dated 1940 as well, so they are not rare I would say.
BTW; great set!!!
Hi and thanks. WOW 1938, very early!
What is the earliest date stamp you've seen on a 4.2cm one? When did they start experiments?
Dave.
H
Hoeksel
Guest
Get me a 4.2 case and I will tell you the date ;-). I wish I had one....I only know 1 collector who has a case.
:tinysmile_shy_t:
Again, this is very early, that's why I was wondering......
Headstamp at some time in the past has had red paint on it to enhance the stamping, don't know why, that's how it came.
Dave.
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Hey Dave,
The "41" in S.PzB 41 does not refer to an acceptance date or the likes.
The German "41" nomenclature was generally reserved/used for squeeze/taperbore weapons and ammo (some "stielgranaten" exempt, as these too had the "41" in their denomination), thus one finds: 2,8/2 cm S. PzB 41, 4,2/2,8 cm PaK 41 and 7,5/5,7 cm PaK 41 (not certain of latter "muzzle calibre" though).
greetz,
Menno.
The "41" in S.PzB 41 does not refer to an acceptance date or the likes.
The German "41" nomenclature was generally reserved/used for squeeze/taperbore weapons and ammo (some "stielgranaten" exempt, as these too had the "41" in their denomination), thus one finds: 2,8/2 cm S. PzB 41, 4,2/2,8 cm PaK 41 and 7,5/5,7 cm PaK 41 (not certain of latter "muzzle calibre" though).
greetz,
Menno.
![28][20 001.jpg](https://www.bocn.co.uk/data/attachments/45/45421-0799dc5bc12cc02d1a73bf3ee30cbd33.jpg "28][20 001.jpg")
![28][20 003.jpg](https://www.bocn.co.uk/data/attachments/45/45420-fd718f96e2b7c24c9a0a68500a773b33.jpg "28][20 003.jpg")
![28][20 005.jpg](https://www.bocn.co.uk/data/attachments/45/45418-c1873982118999b76cb139cd57fda261.jpg "28][20 005.jpg")
![28][20 008.jpg](https://www.bocn.co.uk/data/attachments/45/45419-861dc32b4148824908b6d9023d4c0360.jpg "28][20 008.jpg")
Lou,
That is one fine piece you have there, it's the "tropen" round....and sporting a full cap still!!
If you ever feel the need to part with it, please drop me a line !
As a P.s. to my former post:
"PzGr 40" refers to all AP WW2 German ammo containing a tungsten core while "PzGr 39" is German nomenclature for all APHE ammo.
greetz,
Menno.
That is one fine piece you have there, it's the "tropen" round....and sporting a full cap still!!
If you ever feel the need to part with it, please drop me a line !
As a P.s. to my former post:
"PzGr 40" refers to all AP WW2 German ammo containing a tungsten core while "PzGr 39" is German nomenclature for all APHE ammo.
greetz,
Menno.
Thanks for your thoughts on that. I thought they were way to deep to be stamped.
Dave.
Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
IIRC the 28/20 was based on the 25x194R Hotchkiss AT case and was originally developed in Denmark (?) - the name Larsen comes to mind. I'm sure that there was an item about this in the ECRA Bulletin of a good few years ago.
Aha - found it! It was in the November 1992 issue, a drawing of a 28/20x188R (which looks identical to the German round) from the Rudi Keim collection and info from J.Barlerin of France. He states that it was made by the Larsen company of Otterup, Denmark, for the French Army. It was chambered in a special taper-bore gun mounted on an APX carriage and tested by the Commission de Versailles in January 1940. The cases were provided by Larsen, the projectiles either by Larsen or A-VIS. The first cases were made in Norway. The gun was called in France: "Canon de 20mm Larsen".
That was quite an international project, involving France, Denmark and Norway! I wonder when Germany got involved?
Postscript: I found a response to Barlerin's post by the late Manfred Stegmller, who specialised in squeezebore ammo. He states that the round shown was the 29/20 developed by Schulz and Larsen during 1936-39 for the French Army, using the 25x194R Hotchkiss case as the basis. S&L learned how to make tapered barrels and their ammunition from Hermann Gerlich and his assistant, Hans Neufeldt, who worked in Otterup, Denmark, up to 1934. Neufeldt went to Polte, Magdeburg in 1934 shortly after Gerlich's death, and developed there (at least up to 1935) the ammunition for the sPzB41 in 28/20 calibre. The case and projectile dimensions for the 29/20 and 28/20 are very similar, "the difference being in the curvature".
Stegmller 's conclusion was that the design of the 29/20 cartridge was finished while Neufeldt was still in Denmark, otherwise he never would have used a French case for the basis of the first German taper-bore gun. He comments that most of the projectiles were made by Larsen, with very few made in France. Also, the 29/20 failed and the 28/20 succeeded because Neufeldt introduced the use of tungsten carbide cores (the 29/20 presumably used conventional steel cores).
Aha - found it! It was in the November 1992 issue, a drawing of a 28/20x188R (which looks identical to the German round) from the Rudi Keim collection and info from J.Barlerin of France. He states that it was made by the Larsen company of Otterup, Denmark, for the French Army. It was chambered in a special taper-bore gun mounted on an APX carriage and tested by the Commission de Versailles in January 1940. The cases were provided by Larsen, the projectiles either by Larsen or A-VIS. The first cases were made in Norway. The gun was called in France: "Canon de 20mm Larsen".
That was quite an international project, involving France, Denmark and Norway! I wonder when Germany got involved?
Postscript: I found a response to Barlerin's post by the late Manfred Stegmller, who specialised in squeezebore ammo. He states that the round shown was the 29/20 developed by Schulz and Larsen during 1936-39 for the French Army, using the 25x194R Hotchkiss case as the basis. S&L learned how to make tapered barrels and their ammunition from Hermann Gerlich and his assistant, Hans Neufeldt, who worked in Otterup, Denmark, up to 1934. Neufeldt went to Polte, Magdeburg in 1934 shortly after Gerlich's death, and developed there (at least up to 1935) the ammunition for the sPzB41 in 28/20 calibre. The case and projectile dimensions for the 29/20 and 28/20 are very similar, "the difference being in the curvature".
Stegmller 's conclusion was that the design of the 29/20 cartridge was finished while Neufeldt was still in Denmark, otherwise he never would have used a French case for the basis of the first German taper-bore gun. He comments that most of the projectiles were made by Larsen, with very few made in France. Also, the 29/20 failed and the 28/20 succeeded because Neufeldt introduced the use of tungsten carbide cores (the 29/20 presumably used conventional steel cores).
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There is a German ECRA article in 2010 about Gerlich in Denmark.
A good part of the projectiles was made at Polte in Germany. The caliber 29/20 has exactly the same diameters as the 28/20. The French bought the whole development project after the death of Gerlich (who lived in Otterup at that time) from his wife. After that all material was taken to France and some experiments were made there starting with the so called 29/20. Neufeldt went back to Germany and kept on there and made up for the root of developments in Germany.
The international flavour of the Gerlich developments comes from the various places Gerlich was living in and was promoting his developments to several governments like the USA, UK, Denmark, Germany and after his death in France.
I am not sure right now where the Russians got their initiation from but they were doing the first Gerlich type projectiles also in the 1930's already then stopped and kept on during the war, dropped it again and restarted right after the war when captured German documentation became available. They made some developments and stopped again for good.
Only Ukraine started in the 1990's (after independence) a project for 30mm Gerlich projectiles and as always dropped it after technical difficulties.
Nice cases fert.
Do they have the projectiles in them?
Attached a photo of another 4.2.headstamp - definitely a real one. The white stuff in the stamping is talc to make them a bit clearer.
Dave.
Attachments
A bad HE is better than no HE, nice to see some others of these rounds.
Yes brass wash.
Dave.
