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20MM Hispano headstamps
- Thread starter Mossie
- Start date
Hi Tim,
I think not. My others british cases like ST 44 20MM or K2 1944 20MM or R.H. 1944 20MM have no 'Z' and Mk No. I know this only from the .303 cases.
Regards,
Mossie
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Z
Mossie - "Z" was used on many calibres to indicate nitrocellulose powder, not just .303 inch. I am not sure why it does not always appear on 20mm Hispano because they were mostly filled with Neonite. The Z certainly is shown on the labels.(see below). I can understand the Mark number not being in the headstamp because they were "universal" cases that could be used for any load. Perhaps it was just another way to help distinguish the Hispano from the Oerlikon??
British 20mm Oerlikon rounds have the "OeZ" headstamp though.
Regards
TonyE
Mossie - "Z" was used on many calibres to indicate nitrocellulose powder, not just .303 inch. I am not sure why it does not always appear on 20mm Hispano because they were mostly filled with Neonite. The Z certainly is shown on the labels.(see below). I can understand the Mark number not being in the headstamp because they were "universal" cases that could be used for any load. Perhaps it was just another way to help distinguish the Hispano from the Oerlikon??
British 20mm Oerlikon rounds have the "OeZ" headstamp though.
Regards
TonyE
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Dear gents,
thank you for your comments, but unfortunately these do not really answer my question. I will ask other. I have attached a picture of a BBC headstamp. Is this now Barking Brassware or Bridgeport Brass ? I think its UK made. What would be the different between this two headstamps ?
Regards,
Mossie
thank you for your comments, but unfortunately these do not really answer my question. I will ask other. I have attached a picture of a BBC headstamp. Is this now Barking Brassware or Bridgeport Brass ? I think its UK made. What would be the different between this two headstamps ?
Regards,
Mossie
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Unless the British supplied empty cases to the US in the early 1940's, which I cannot say yes or no to, I think the headstamp pictured above is US not British. The first attached photo is a very out of focus round I have with the projectile factory crimped in place. You can see the headstamp is the same style and layout. The third photo, and it is hard to see, shows the US Ordnance Corps emblem stamped into the metal of the projectile body. While the drawings showing the difference between US and British headstamps is correct, it is only true for that one particular US headstamp. That is the only headstamp of that particular layout that I know of. There are a variety of different US headstamp layouts in the 20mm HS cases, none of which match the one on the drawing.
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Hi guys
So this is my first ever post, just came across this page while trying to track down the origin of a 20mm casing that my grandfather found on Broughton beach in the Gower, after he died this was passed to me. From what I can tell it appears to be the same as the one pictured above (1941), will attempt to attach pic, thanks for your help!
So this is my first ever post, just came across this page while trying to track down the origin of a 20mm casing that my grandfather found on Broughton beach in the Gower, after he died this was passed to me. From what I can tell it appears to be the same as the one pictured above (1941), will attempt to attach pic, thanks for your help!
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Falcon
Well-Known Member
From the layout of your headstamp, it is likely that it is British and was made by Barking Brassware Co.
Help me out here guys. Everyone says the BBC headstamps shown are British, but as I previously posted here, my same headstamp has a US projectile loaded in it with a factory crimp on it. Unless the US furnished BBC (Bridgeport Brass Co.) made cases to the British or the British furnished BBC (Barking Brassware) made cases to the US, then my round shown is US. Did the British and the US use the same exact headstamp layout and style for their respective made BBC cases?
Let me throw something else into the mix also. Over the years I have seen references to BBC also being used by Bristol Brass & Copper Co. of the US on small arms ammunition cases and BBC also being associated with British Bath Co., Greenford, England. I don't think either of these was making 20mm cases, but can anyone else shed light on those two manufacturers?
Let me throw something else into the mix also. Over the years I have seen references to BBC also being used by Bristol Brass & Copper Co. of the US on small arms ammunition cases and BBC also being associated with British Bath Co., Greenford, England. I don't think either of these was making 20mm cases, but can anyone else shed light on those two manufacturers?
EODGUY,
Having done a little research on the matter - namely a thorough read of 'Handook for 20MM. Small Arm Ammuntion' it would appear one of the subtle differences between US and UK headstamps is the date. The publication states that 'typically' on a UK round the date will be shown as the last two digits but on US ammunition the date will be in full. I've always had a sneaking suspicion about Barking producing 20MM - they were a small company and whilst they would have had the capacity for small volume items such as depth charge thrower cartridges etc., I would have thought to make it viable to make 20 MM one would have to make them it enourmous quantities. I plan to visit the National Archives in the near future to see if I can find any reference to contracts for 20MM made by Barking, also see what British Bath Co. made.
The headstamp layout threw me, assuming it was British which was silly as alot of US made 18 Pr cases from the Great War are identical in layout to British manufactured cases.
Regards
Tim
Having done a little research on the matter - namely a thorough read of 'Handook for 20MM. Small Arm Ammuntion' it would appear one of the subtle differences between US and UK headstamps is the date. The publication states that 'typically' on a UK round the date will be shown as the last two digits but on US ammunition the date will be in full. I've always had a sneaking suspicion about Barking producing 20MM - they were a small company and whilst they would have had the capacity for small volume items such as depth charge thrower cartridges etc., I would have thought to make it viable to make 20 MM one would have to make them it enourmous quantities. I plan to visit the National Archives in the near future to see if I can find any reference to contracts for 20MM made by Barking, also see what British Bath Co. made.
The headstamp layout threw me, assuming it was British which was silly as alot of US made 18 Pr cases from the Great War are identical in layout to British manufactured cases.
Regards
Tim
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Tim,
Thanks for looking into it on your end. I'll anxiously await your response. Bridgeport made a lot of 20mm and cal. .50 high velocity cases during WWII period and shortly after. They used B, B inside a diamond shape, B inside a circle and BBC as their headstamps.
Bob
Thanks for looking into it on your end. I'll anxiously await your response. Bridgeport made a lot of 20mm and cal. .50 high velocity cases during WWII period and shortly after. They used B, B inside a diamond shape, B inside a circle and BBC as their headstamps.
Bob
Thank you Bob and Tim for your comments.
"The publication states that 'typically' on a UK round the date will be shown as the last two digits but on US ammunition the date will be in full."
Now Im totally confused. I have any different 20MM cases. For example:
UK made
K2 1944 20MM or R.H. 1944 20MM
US made
A.S.C. 1942 20MM M21 or S.M.C. 1944 20MM M21A1
I see the different between UK and US in the addition 'M21' or 'M21A1'. Perhaps also later in the war.
Regards,
Mossie
"The publication states that 'typically' on a UK round the date will be shown as the last two digits but on US ammunition the date will be in full."
Now Im totally confused. I have any different 20MM cases. For example:
UK made
K2 1944 20MM or R.H. 1944 20MM
US made
A.S.C. 1942 20MM M21 or S.M.C. 1944 20MM M21A1
I see the different between UK and US in the addition 'M21' or 'M21A1'. Perhaps also later in the war.
Regards,
Mossie
The two number date versus four number date is one way that I have roughly identified US from British cases. I'm not sure it is a hard fact though. The ASC and SMC codes mentioned I have as trhe following on my list. I am sure there are other case types, but I have seen these.
ASC A.S. Campbell Co., Inc., East Boston, MA. WWII M21A1B1 and Mk 2 cases
ASCO A.S. Campbell Co., Inc., East Boston, MA. WWII M21A1B1 and Mk 2 cases
SMC Symington Machine Corp., Rochester, NY. WWII 20mm M21A1 & M21A1B1 cases
ASC A.S. Campbell Co., Inc., East Boston, MA. WWII M21A1B1 and Mk 2 cases
ASCO A.S. Campbell Co., Inc., East Boston, MA. WWII M21A1B1 and Mk 2 cases
SMC Symington Machine Corp., Rochester, NY. WWII 20mm M21A1 & M21A1B1 cases
