What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

20x105B "Short Solothurn" rounds

jiipee76

jiipee76

Well-Known Member
I am searching any information/pictures of various rounds used in this caliber.

Only rounds i have seen were Hungarian made with AP-T and APHE-T projectiles made by firm Csepel.

Germans made casings for this caliber too,but i have not seen any complete german made rounds with projectiles.

I have bought lots of casings for this caliber and would like to get few proper projectiles too. :tinysmile_classes_t
 
The Dutch also used this round in aircraft guns. Rounds are really rare!
 
Hey Jiipee,

I have some different rounds of this type.
They are rather hard to come by.
The round was used with the S18-100 AT rifle and in the MG/MK 204 aircraftgun, use in the latter weapon was experimental.
There also excists an unbelted 20 x 105 round, which was also used in an experimental aircraftgun, this eventually became operational in very limited numbers within some kriegsmarine flyingboats.

I have some pics at home, please mail me iff you are interested, as I cannot upload them at the 'mo.

gr,

Menno.
 
Hoeksel said:
The Dutch also used this round in aircraft guns. Rounds are really rare!
Click to expand...

Did dutch also manufacture rounds for this caliber?

I received wartime manual of Rheinmetall-Borsig for this caliber.Rheinmetall made various projectiles for this caliber.AP-T,APHE-T(SD),AP-Practice,HE-T,HE,HEI-T.
 
pzgr40/42 said:
The round was used with the S18-100 AT rifle and in the MG/MK 204 aircraftgun, use in the latter weapon was experimental.
There also excists an unbelted 20 x 105 round, which was also used in an experimental aircraftgun, this eventually became operational in very limited numbers within some kriegsmarine flyingboats.
Click to expand...
The anti-tank rifles were given various designations, depending on who they were supplied to. I recall seeing an S18-154 in the MoD Pattern Room. The Dutch aircraft gun (which was semi-automatic only, like the anti-tank rifles) was designated S18-500 I believe (or possibly S18-350, I am away from my sources).

As far as I know (and I am not certain about this, there are no definitive references I have ever found) the 20x105B was used in the Lb 204 experimental fully-automatic aircraft gun (there is some debate about what Lb stands for). The change to using 20x105 rimless (with a larger case diameter) seems to have more or less coincided with the redesignation MG 204 and the adoption by the Kriegsmarine. Only a handful of these guns saw service, and were magazine-fed for use in flexible mountings. A belt-fed version for fixed installations (MG 204G for Gurt IIRC) was developed bu never used. The gun was rather heavy anbd slow-firing compared with similar weapons.
 
The Dutch used Solothurn manufactured rounds, I am not aware of any Dutch made round.

jiipee76 said:
Did dutch also manufacture rounds for this caliber?

I received wartime manual of Rheinmetall-Borsig for this caliber.Rheinmetall made various projectiles for this caliber.AP-T,APHE-T(SD),AP-Practice,HE-T,HE,HEI-T.
Click to expand...
 
munfrosch said:
Did it helps the Rheinmetal document?
Click to expand...

Yes,fantastic manual.

I would like to see some color pictures of the rounds too.Not long ago there was few very nice complete rounds at egun,start price was 180euros/each. :tinysmile_cry_t2:
 
Today I was lucky to find THREE different marked German 20x105B cases + projectiles. Can anybody clarify their use (export, experimental.....)?

1) P 38 1 (Polte 1938, export?)
2) P WaAxxx L204 37 2 (Polte German use, 1937)
3) P M 35 4 (Polte, 1935, experimental?)
 
pzgr40/42 said:
The round was used with the S18-100 AT rifle and in the MG/MK 204 aircraftgun, use in the latter weapon was experimental.
There also excists an unbelted 20 x 105 round, which was also used in an experimental aircraftgun, this eventually became operational in very limited numbers within some kriegsmarine flyingboats.
Click to expand...

The MG 204 used the beltless case and was the one officially adopted in some flying boats. The belted case for the 204 was the experimental one and is NOT the same as the 20x105B as it was used in AT rifles or the like since MG 204 cases had a different priming system. This is the reason why 20x105B cases for the MG 204 have the additional hs marking "204".
 
Thanks EOD! Still I wonder if #1 is export (no WaA) and why my unbelted 20x105 case has a Luftwaffe stamp (I would expect different for a flying boat).
 
Acceptance stamps are not related to the service an ammunition is intended for. That is often confused.
In general the MG 204 is an aircraft gun, developed as such and tested in the air force test station of Rechlin. So a Luftwaffe acceptance stamp is the first one to be expected.
But as said before I have seen typical air foce ammunition which had navy acceptance stamps on - all by the book and legit.
 
EOD said:
The belted case for the 204 was the experimental one and is NOT the same as the 20x105B as it was used in AT rifles or the like since MG 204 cases had a different priming system. This is the reason why 20x105B cases for the MG 204 have the additional hs marking "204".
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Can you tell me in what way the priming system was different?

Incidentally, the experimental MG using the belted case was apparently designated Lb 204, though no-one seems entirely certain what the letters signify.
 
The "Lb" has never been confirmed/identified by primary sources so far.

The MG204 case (as well as the 20x138B MG C/30 L case) had an additional small brass tube inside the primer pocket which was filled with a flash composition to aid better ignition. When you check with such a case you will see a small protruding cylinder from the inside of the case head.
I do not know why this was neccessary and again there is no primary source on the background of this.
One assumption is that this was done to aid a better ignition of the propellant at low temperatures which are common in high altitudes.
 
EOD said:
The "Lb" has never been confirmed/identified by primary sources so far.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. The 1948 Unterlss reports, resulting from the interrogation of German armament specialists immediately after the war, list and provide some details of experimental aircraft guns including the Lb 201a, Lb 202 and Lb 204. I also have a 1935-dated drawing of the Lb 201a ammunition, so the "Lb" seems to have been a genuine designation (albeit possibly only a Rheinmetall one).

There was a theory that Lb referred to the designer, Heinrich Lbbe. However, it now appears more likely that stands for 'Lafette beweglich', indicating that it was intended for a flexible mounting.

 
Hey all,

I recall the Lb 201 also to have been used as armament of an armoured security vehicle in use with the Polizei, calibre being 20 x 108.
As I understand later in the war (or towards the end), the round was also tested for aircraft use (the gun having become obsolete far earlier).
Several loadings were available, HE, SAPHE, API.

http://wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?3293-2cm-Lb-201-(-20-x-105)-KWK-35-Polizei&highlight=fenrir

Also a ton of info on 20 x 105 (/B) there!

regards,

Menno.
 
Last edited:
Menno, do I understand correctly from that link (my German being virtually non-existent) that a version of the S18-100 anti-tank rifle was offered in the 20x105 rimless MG 204 calibre?
 
The Lb 201 ammo there is just posted tohether with that 2cm KwK. None of the documents is confirming any relation between the 20x108 (not the rimless MG204 cartridge) and the weapon there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top