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22RF Box
- Thread starter Andysarmoury
- Start date
Chris 42 RQ
Well-Known Member
"K" Headstamp
Headstamp would be "K" for Kynoch-rare boxes these days!
Headstamp would be "K" for Kynoch-rare boxes these days!
Hi Chris, didn't they change to ICI after the second world war.
Andy
Andy
Chris 42 RQ
Well-Known Member
See this one!
In relation to this thread you may like to lok at this thread
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/h52-mk2-tin-t44730p2.html
During and after the war the .22 RF rounds produced were indeed headstamped ICI and were all as far as I know made of copper this then changed to Brass cases when Kynoch took over production, I am hazarding a guess at around the early sixties-I am sure Tony E will have a definate for that change in production.
In relation to this thread you may like to lok at this thread
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/h52-mk2-tin-t44730p2.html
During and after the war the .22 RF rounds produced were indeed headstamped ICI and were all as far as I know made of copper this then changed to Brass cases when Kynoch took over production, I am hazarding a guess at around the early sixties-I am sure Tony E will have a definate for that change in production.
Thanks Chris, i had forgotten about that thread more to collect lol,it must have been around that time.
thanks again
Andy
thanks again
Andy
Hi Tony, i think the E head stamp was much later i think my box should be ICI as far as i can tell,we will have to Ask TonyE.
Cheers
Andy
Cheers
Andy
Chris 42 RQ
Well-Known Member
Brain fade again !
It would not be a "K" but would have been an "E" for Eley Kynoch.
:embarassed:
Well i am more confused then when i started are they stamped IMI -K - ICI - or E.:hmmmm2:
Andy
Andy
This one is for TonyE can you please help sort out this small problem regarding the head stamps on these rounds is it IMI -K - ICI - or E.
Cheers
Andy
Cheers
Andy
Thank you Tony it would be very helpful if you can.
Andy
Andy
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
British .22 RF
As promised, I have finally got round to posting details and pictures of the .22RF rounds.
The earliest Mark I rounds had a "K" headstamp. but most of them were "ICI" . Mark 2 rounds are also headstamped "ICI" until probaly around 1970 when the headstamp was changed to "E". It is not possible to be more definite because the dates when ICI changed their .22 headstamps from "K" to "ICI" to "E" do not coincide with the dates of the change from Mark I to Mark II to the current L1A1 (?).
British .22 rounds are very hard to identify correctly, so I thought it would be worth noting a bit of their history in the service.
The original Aiming Tubes were in .230 centrefire (the Morris Short round) and it was not until 1904 that these were changed to .22 Rinfire.
List of Change Para. 13642 dated Nov. 1904 introduced the first .22 inch "Cart. Aiming Tube, RF (Mark I)/L" which had a copper case loaded with black powder and a 39.9 grain bullet.
LoC Para. 15628 (Oct. 1908) introduced the "Cart. .22 inch RF No.2 (Mark I)/N" which was a black powder loaded .22 short with a copper case and 30 grain bullet exclusively for Naval service. At the same time the nomenclature of the long round was changed to "Cart. .22 inch RF No.1 (Mark I)"
LoC para. 15936 (feb. 1912) extended the use of the No.1 cartridge to Naval use and LoC Para. 17461 (Feb. 1914) introduced the "Cart. .22 inch RF No.1 Smokeless (Mark I)", which is the Mark I that we know.
LoC 17550 (Feb. 1915) added the words "Black Powder" to the nomenclature of the original No.1 cartridge.
LoC Para. 23310 (May 1919) amended the use of the No.1 Smokeless round to Land and Air service after the formation of the RAF.
LoC Para. 23763 (Jan 1920) made the black powder No.1 obsolete for land service and reverted the use to "N".
Loc Para. 24374 (Feb 1921) made the black powder No.1 cartridge obsolete for Naval service also.
Loc Para. 24639 (Sep. 1921) introduced the Smokeless No.1 for Naval service and Loc Para. 24871 (Nov. 1921) sealed a new drawing (NOD 1546) for the No.2 Mark I black powder short round for the Navy.
I do not have details of the LoCs after that other than when all the nomenclature was changed in 1926 the only .22 RF cartridge left in service was the Smokeless Mark I.
The cartridges in the first picture are:
.22 No.1 Mark I by Kynoch with dished "K" headstamp. Note the pin stabs securing the bullet which was not used on commercial ammo. I also have a Kynoch Mark I round coming headstamped "K I" but I do not have it yet.
.22 No.1 Mark I by Royal laboratory with "RL I" dished headstamp.
.22 Tracer with "ICI" in diamond headstamp, WW2 period.
.22 Inspector's with white metal case and hollow base.
.22 Inspector's for the .22 conversion of the SLR, turned brass, no headstamp.
.22 Winchester Rim Fire. These are a diferent round entirely and were used in the Winchester Model 1903 automatic rifle during WWI to train Air Gunners.
The next photos show the headstamps of the above rounds, and included are Mark I rounds from Kings Norton, Footscray Australia and Kirkee India.
Finally a couple of different labels. The No.1 Mark I label by Kynoch is probaly pre WWI, but impossible to date accurately. The second is a normal Mark 2 box that has been relegated to "Practice Only".
I have probaly now confused the matter entirely!
Regards
TonyE
As promised, I have finally got round to posting details and pictures of the .22RF rounds.
The earliest Mark I rounds had a "K" headstamp. but most of them were "ICI" . Mark 2 rounds are also headstamped "ICI" until probaly around 1970 when the headstamp was changed to "E". It is not possible to be more definite because the dates when ICI changed their .22 headstamps from "K" to "ICI" to "E" do not coincide with the dates of the change from Mark I to Mark II to the current L1A1 (?).
British .22 rounds are very hard to identify correctly, so I thought it would be worth noting a bit of their history in the service.
The original Aiming Tubes were in .230 centrefire (the Morris Short round) and it was not until 1904 that these were changed to .22 Rinfire.
List of Change Para. 13642 dated Nov. 1904 introduced the first .22 inch "Cart. Aiming Tube, RF (Mark I)/L" which had a copper case loaded with black powder and a 39.9 grain bullet.
LoC Para. 15628 (Oct. 1908) introduced the "Cart. .22 inch RF No.2 (Mark I)/N" which was a black powder loaded .22 short with a copper case and 30 grain bullet exclusively for Naval service. At the same time the nomenclature of the long round was changed to "Cart. .22 inch RF No.1 (Mark I)"
LoC para. 15936 (feb. 1912) extended the use of the No.1 cartridge to Naval use and LoC Para. 17461 (Feb. 1914) introduced the "Cart. .22 inch RF No.1 Smokeless (Mark I)", which is the Mark I that we know.
LoC 17550 (Feb. 1915) added the words "Black Powder" to the nomenclature of the original No.1 cartridge.
LoC Para. 23310 (May 1919) amended the use of the No.1 Smokeless round to Land and Air service after the formation of the RAF.
LoC Para. 23763 (Jan 1920) made the black powder No.1 obsolete for land service and reverted the use to "N".
Loc Para. 24374 (Feb 1921) made the black powder No.1 cartridge obsolete for Naval service also.
Loc Para. 24639 (Sep. 1921) introduced the Smokeless No.1 for Naval service and Loc Para. 24871 (Nov. 1921) sealed a new drawing (NOD 1546) for the No.2 Mark I black powder short round for the Navy.
I do not have details of the LoCs after that other than when all the nomenclature was changed in 1926 the only .22 RF cartridge left in service was the Smokeless Mark I.
The cartridges in the first picture are:
.22 No.1 Mark I by Kynoch with dished "K" headstamp. Note the pin stabs securing the bullet which was not used on commercial ammo. I also have a Kynoch Mark I round coming headstamped "K I" but I do not have it yet.
.22 No.1 Mark I by Royal laboratory with "RL I" dished headstamp.
.22 Tracer with "ICI" in diamond headstamp, WW2 period.
.22 Inspector's with white metal case and hollow base.
.22 Inspector's for the .22 conversion of the SLR, turned brass, no headstamp.
.22 Winchester Rim Fire. These are a diferent round entirely and were used in the Winchester Model 1903 automatic rifle during WWI to train Air Gunners.
The next photos show the headstamps of the above rounds, and included are Mark I rounds from Kings Norton, Footscray Australia and Kirkee India.
Finally a couple of different labels. The No.1 Mark I label by Kynoch is probaly pre WWI, but impossible to date accurately. The second is a normal Mark 2 box that has been relegated to "Practice Only".
I have probaly now confused the matter entirely!
Regards
TonyE
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Hi Folks, with regard to packaging, the .22 ammo I saw while I was serving were cardboard boxes each of 100 rounds as shown in photos in this thread but I never saw the older tinplate containers of 600 rounds. I saw CWPs (Case Wood Packing) with a soldered tinplate inner container that held 5,000 rounds. You wouldn't have wanted to drop one on your foot. The ammo was dated 1970s - 1980s.
XT
XT
Thank you Tony for a well explained explanation and a bit of history too, at lease i know now what rounds to fill the box with.
All the best
Andy
All the best
Andy