.303 blank question

[falcon5nz]

G'day.
I recently obtained 2 .303 blanks.
The first one I've ID'd using B.A Temple's "Identification Manual on the .303 Britsh Service Cartridge:No. 2 Blank ammunition" (A Brilliant set of books if you can find them-I beleive they are out of print. If not, please correct me as I need books 5 and 6)
-No bullet
-Rosette Crimp
-Cannelured
-Plain Case
-Large Diameter (Berdan) primer
-Ball Headstamp C A C,VI,C(12,5,7)
I beleive it to be Cartridge, S.A., Blank, .303-Inch, Without Bullet, Mark V. (Canadian Pattern)

The second I'm not sure on.
It also has:
-No bullet
-Rosette Crimp
-Cannelured
-Plain Case
-Large Diameter (Berdan) primer
But it has a blank headstamp.
So every thing but the headstamp makes me think it is another Mark V. (Canadian Pattern), but the book states, under identification, "...a check of the base will reveal the large diameter Berdan primer and ball headstamps, which are standard to this type."

So, Do I just have 2 Mk 5 (Canada) blanks ,one without a headstamp (which will make the book wrong), or am I missing something here?

 

[smle2009]

Blank blank

Hi Falcon,
A lot of blanks were made from reject ball case's your first one,I think would have been for a Mk6 cordite.
I also have a whole packet of ten blanks with no headstamp,the packet is marked "10 cartridges,blank,.303inch L Mk V, also with no makers info.
I believe these unmarked blanks are from WW2,maybe to cut down production times?
Cheers Tony
PS TonyE has written a rather usefull book "Headstamps and markings on .303" British service ammunition"(it also deals with commonwealth production) I'm sure if tou PM TonyE he will send you details.

 

[TonyE]

L mark V

I am quite certain your first blank (CAC VI C) is not a Canadian blank, as by its very definition, Canadian style blanks were made in Canada, It sounds much more like a Blank Mark VI with the mock bullet removed, and the headstamp supports this. However, without a good picture of both the blank and the headstamp it is impossible to be certain.

The three position headstamp means it dates from before 1907 when the "C" for Cordite was officially dropped (Although, just to complicate things, CAC re-introduced it briefly in the 1920s) and this is before the Canadian style blank appeared.

Two clues to look for. Are there any traces of the case blackening remaining? This often wears off or is polished off by someone who things it is discolouring. Are there any traces of the three pin stabs at the neck of the case that secured the mock bullet?

The second unheadstamped case is more uncertain, although I think the presence of a neck cannelure cannot be taken as definite identification of a Canadian blank. I will have a look through my blank collection later to see if any other manufacturers used a wad. Without seeing the blank in question I would suspect it is not Canadian.

One of the minor problems with Barry's books is that he frequently uses non-official nomenclature which confuses matters. He uses "First Pattern", "Second Pattern" etc. to describe slight variations that were simply either different manufacturers' versions or evolutions of the design. To the military they were all the same round.

I have a copy of Part 5, but have not heard of a Part 6. What is it reputed to cover?

Regards
TonyE

 

[relbut]

Barry Temple's Manuals

The No.6 Manual of "303 Identification" was to be "A Miscellany". In correspondence with Barry a few years ago he stated that he never got around to completing the series, so the complete set is only Nos 1 to 5.

 

[falcon5nz]

Brilliant, I only need to find No.5. Any idea what miscellaneous cartridges would have been in it?
Tony-I can't find a hint of color or stab crimps anywhere. You said good picture. How about mediocre made with a scanner.
And just as I walked into my room I found an identical third cartridge. With CAC,20(looks like 2C),VIIZ(looks like VIIL) hstp. Unfortunatly as the headstamp was worn it's not a brilliant scan.
But here goes.
This is the first one (CAC,C,VI)

Secondly the blank hstp

Thirdly the CAC,20,VIIZ

 

[TonyE]

Blanks

I agree with you, the first one does not look like it was originally a Blank Mark VI as it is virtually identical in construction to the other two, both of which are too late.

I still have not checked my own NZ made blanks to compare. I will try to do that tomorrow.

Cheers
TonyE

 

[TonyE]

NZ

I have finally got round to checking my blanks and I am ashamed to say that I do not have any CAC blanks from pre-WW2, so I cannot compare with yours.

The 1943/4 period ones I have do not have the cannelure, which makes yours all the more interesting. Have a chat with some other NZ/Oz collectors and see what they say. I will be very interested in the results.

Regards
TonyE

 

[ydnum303]

NZ .303" blanks

Hi falcon5nz,
Have just looked at my blanks, and I have the following;
1. h/s C A C , no cannalure;
2. h/s C A C II, no cannalure;
3. h/s C A C C II, no cannalure;
4. h/s as 3., but with neck cannalure;
5. h/s C A C C VI, with neck cannalure;
6. h/s CAC. 17 VI, with neck cannalure;
They all appear to be ordinary Mk V blanks, as there appear to be no other characteristics that would make me think of them being another type (although I have to confess that I have not weighed them to see if any are black-powder loaded).
There seems to be a progression, with the earliest blanks not having the cannalure, so it could be that experience showed that it was desirable to have the wad firmly fixed in the neck, so that's what they did, which in effect made a "New Zealand variant" from the standard, approved British form. I have no definite evidence for this, it's just my opinion.
R.

 

[TonyE]

NZ

A good selection Roger, and interesting that there does seem a period when they utilised a cannelure. I must confess I have not paid a lot of attention to blank headstamp variations.

The variants of NZ .303 ammo are not documented very well, for example the reintroduction of the "C" for cordite in headstamps of the 1920s when CAC was loading both cordite and NC.

Regards
TonyE

 

[ydnum303]

NZ .303" headstamps

Hi Tony,
Yes, the early NZ h/s differ quite a bit from the usual British practice; the earliest, I was told, had no h/s, then there was a period when just C A C was used (at 9, 12, & 3 o'clock), then came the "C A C II" type, then the more usual C A C C II. These were all Mk II Cordite, as NZ apparently made no black-powder .303 ball. To muddy the water even further, most of the directors of Greenwood & Batley here in the UK were also directors of CAC, and G&B made a lot of the CAC headstamped ammunition until the CAC site in Auckland was operational. I was also told by a well known NZ collector (alas, now passed on) that some of the early CAC packets, when opened, were found to have mixtures of the above headstamps in them!
Roger.

 

[ydnum303]

NZ .303 ammo info.

Tony,
I should have said in my previous post that there are 3 good booklets on NZ ammo production, namely "Whitney's Heritage", by Barry Gracia; "A Little Further, A Little Faster", a compilation by the late Lynn Harris; and "The Military .303 Cartridge, Its History & Variations", also by Lynn Harris. This last booklet covers .303 generally, and is not specific to the NZ product (but I am sure you know all this already).
Roger.

 

[TonyE]

Cac

I don't have "Whitney's Heritage" but I have the other books. I knew Lynn Harris well and corresponded with him for years.

There are also some interesting details concerning G & b and CAC in the G & B archives in the Yorkshire library.

Regards
Tony

 

[relbut]

303 Blanks

To add to this thread I checked the NZ blanks that I have. The cannelure was on three.
C.A.C. C.V Deep cannelure
CAC V 22 Longer neck than usual with cannelure almost into the crimp
CAC C VII 27 Light cannelure

Les