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.303 bullet for Andy

TonyE

TonyE

HONOURED MEMBER RIP
This picture is for Andy to show the early Mark VII 160 grain bullet which has no cannelure compared to the 174 grain.

The 160 grain was only loaded for a very short time in 1910 when it failed accuracy proof in August 1910 and production was stopped. A hurried re-design produced the familiar 174 grain bullet which was approved in November 1910.

Some manufacturers continued to load existing stocks of the 160 grain bullet for at least another year though.

Regards
TonyE
 

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Thanks Tony, and yes i did weigh mine and its 174grains without cannelure and stamped on the base is KN i take it its Kings Norton but did they make a Match bullet.
Andy
 

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I think it is probably a bullet for a match cartridge, either a normal .303 case or perhaps the .375/.303. This was originally developed by KN as a match round I believe although it was made by all of the British manufacturers. KN had their "Palma" brand match ammo, Kynoch their "SWIFT" brand and Eley their "Marksman" at this time.

KN were well known for their match ammunition and were often the selected manufacturer for the Bisley Imperial Meeting in the years before the First World War.

I am not a specialist on these rounds. Roger M may dip into this thread as he knows far more about the Bisley matches and the ammo than I do.

Regards
TonyE
 
Thank you Tony, have you got a picture for comparison of the Palma - swift and marksman rounds please.
Regards
Andy
 
Hi Andy (and TonyE),

Andy, where did you get your bullet? Was it in a case, and if so, what was the headstamp?

Certainly made by Kings Norton, and a commercial rather than military product as it has no cannelure. KN started making pointed bullets in 1904/5, the first lot being stated to have been of an experimental nature, and were used at Bisley for "Match Rifle" competitions. The design of the pointed bullets was steadily improved over the next few years, and they were available in different weights.

At present, I have not pulled any of my KN-made cartridges to examine the bullet to check weights or cannelures, but I will make some enquiries, and see what (if anything) I can come up with.

Roger.
 
Hi Roger,I bought a box full of rounds and there was a couple laying in the bottom of the box but no cases, i have been looking for a case for ages what’s the headstamp for the match rounds? and have you any pictures of the Palma - swift and marksman bullets.
Regards
Andy
 
Andy - here are some pictures of the various proprietary match cartridges.

The first two, Kings Norton and Kynoch are from Bill Hardings fine book on the Birmingham cartridge makers whilst the third is from his book on Eley Bros. I trust he will not mind me posting these.

The final picture is from an original 1911/12 Eley catalogue in my collection. "Marksman" cartridges were also made in 6.5 Mannlicher, 8mm Mannlicher, 7mm Mauser and others.

Regards
TonyE
 

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Thank you very much Tony, its very much appreciated i do like to see these old ammo box labels.
Regards
Andy
 
Andy,
The headstamps on KN match cartridges varied. Some had the full "KINGS NORTON METAL Co Ld", some had "KNMCo.", some just had "KN". I don't know the rationale behind which h/s they used, and information on the company is fairly sparse, as the cartridge side of the business was absorbed into Explosives Trades Ltd immediately after WW1, and their records were probably destroyed.

As far as I am aware, no-one has ever seen a catalogue from this company, so we don't know for sure exactly what they made (catalogues/price lists from Eley Bros, Kynoch, and BM&MCo exist, so why not KN?), although there is a fair bit of correspondence between KN and the NRA in the NRA's archives at Bisley, relating mostly to the supply of Mk.VI-type ammunition on contract for the NRA to sell to its members.

Regarding the pictures TonyE has just posted, in the 2nd one there is an error (not Tony's!) in that the 5th cartridge from left is actually a .280 Ross, and the 6th cartridge is the .333/280 Jeffery.

Regards,
Roger.
 
Many Thanks Roger, i have never seen any of those h/s apart from the KN on military rounds, its a shame that no records have survived. I have a cutting out of a NRA mag and written by ted molyneux and it shows some of the cartridges used at bisley with h/s and it shows two rounds KN c II and KN 07 NRA VI and dates known are 1907- 08- 09-11-and 1913 for Kings Norton it also shows R^L and Kynoch and G B being used. i could copy it to show you but don't now about the copy rights on it.
Regards
Andy
 
And now for something completely different!....well not really...is there any reason behind a double cannelure on a normal 174 grain .303" bullet?

Cheers
Tony
 
Tony it could be different cores perhaps! or to seat them at different depths.
Regards
Andy
 
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Andy,

Thanks for the offer. I already have a copy of this article; the writer thereof, Ted Molyneux, is the curator of the NRA Museum, and I usually see him a couple of times a week down there. (We are normally there most Tuesdays and Fridays, 9 to 3, and are pleased to show visitors round and talk ammunition, unless we are very busy! But best to ring first.)

Tony, re the 2 cannelures, would this be an American-made bullet? Could be it was done so that it could be crimped either at the case mouth, or with 3 stab/slit crimps on the neck.

Roger.
 
My thoughts exactly Roger. It is quite common to find two cannelures on US made WWI contract bullets. They are usually knurled rather than smooth.

Regards
TonyE
 
303

here is a pic of my winchester 303 dated 1916 with the two cannelures
Andy
 

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Hi Andy,Tony and Rodger,
were not the US made bullets shorter because they did not use a 'filler' in the tip and had to be made shorter to keep the weight the same as British/Commonwealth VII's?
Photo is of bullet alongside an unfired Kynoch VII bullet,two things I know for certain about this bullet...it was used by the military and was used during WW2

All the best
Tony

P6070010.jpg
 
That was certainly the case in WW2, but I am not so sure about WWI. I have not had enough Winchester WWI rounds to be able to section one.

Andy - Is your round headstamped just "W 16" at 9 and 3?

I will post some Winchester WWI headstamps shortly as they are quite interesting.

Regards
TonyE
 
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