37 x 111 HO 203

[SG500]

I'm hopeing some of the Japanese Ordnance experts can help out here please.
I got these a couple of months ago. Having looked them up in Ken elks book "Japanese Ammunition 1880-1945 part 2" I can't work out if its a Ho 203 round or a Year 11 infantry gun round. Both seem to have very similar cases with the possible difference being the neck height. Can anyone help?
Thanks.
Dave.

 

[SG500]

Just bumping this one, help me out guys, surely there's some Japanese Ordnance experts out there who can help ?:tinysmile_eyebrow_t

Dave.

 

[US-Subs]

I'll try and look tonight when I get home, but no promises. Had a tree limb come down yesterday (snow) took out my cable, phone and internet at home. Makes it awkward to check photos, etc.

 

[ogreve]

Hi Dave,

Nice finds!
I hadn't seen this question yet (so it's good you bumped it ) but the answer is pretty simple: the cases are just about identical, except for the neck crimp. The Type 11-Year Infantry gun calibre does not have a neck crimp, whereas the Ho-203 variant does have a deep neck crimp. Your images shows that you have both kinds, with the complete round being a proper Ho-203 specimen, with the correct projectile. The Type 11-Year rounds used the regular kinds of projectiles that were also used on e.g. the 37x132R and 37x165R calibres (as well as the more exotic 37x250R types). The Ho-203 HE projectile is distinctively shorter.
Incidentally, both your casings are from 1943; this was to be expected from the Ho-203 one, but is slightly late (though not unseen) for the Type 11-Year one, which was first introduced in Taisho 11 (= 1922).
In somewhat more detail, both casings were made by the Nagoya arsenal, the Type 11-Year one in July 1943 (the primer was manufactured by the Osaka arsenal in April, 1943), and the Ho-203 one in August 1943 (the primer was manufactured by the Osaka arsenal in July, 1940).
The references to the neck height will most likely refer back to either of the following two pieces of information you'll have read:
1) Ken Elks' section about the 'Sogekiho'; which is very close to the Type 11-Year calibre, or:
2) Possibly some comments/questions from Robert Melichamp, who's looking into Chinese casings in 37x111R calibre having a longer neck.

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[SG500]

Hi Dave,

Nice finds!
I hadn't seen this question yet (so it's good you bumped it ) but the answer is pretty simple: the cases are just about identical, except for the neck crimp. The Type 11-Year Infantry gun calibre does not have a neck crimp, whereas the Ho-203 variant does have a deep neck crimp. Your images shows that you have both kinds, with the complete round being a proper Ho-203 specimen, with the correct projectile. The Type 11-Year rounds used the regular kinds of projectiles that were also used on e.g. the 37x132R and 37x165R calibres (as well as the more exotic 37x250R types). The Ho-203 HE projectile is distinctively shorter.
Incidentally, both your casings are from 1943; this was to be expected from the Ho-203 one, but is slightly late (though not unseen) for the Type 11-Year one, which was first introduced in Taisho 11 (= 1922).
In somewhat more detail, both casings were made by the Nagoya arsenal, the Type 11-Year one in July 1943 (the primer was manufactured by the Osaka arsenal in April, 1943), and the Ho-203 one in August 1943 (the primer was manufactured by the Osaka arsenal in July, 1940).
The references to the neck height will most likely refer back to either of the following two pieces of information you'll have read:
1) Ken Elks' section about the 'Sogekiho'; which is very close to the Type 11-Year calibre, or:
2) Possibly some comments/questions from Robert Melichamp, who's looking into Chinese casings in 37x111R calibre having a longer neck.

Cheers,
Olafo

Thanks Olafo, that's really good information. Its nice to have both.
Dave.

 

[ogreve]

Hi Dave,

You're most welcome.
If you can send a close-up picture of the markings right above the driving band, I can give you additional information as to where and when the projectile was manufactured.
As for the paint on it: when it was fully painted, it would have been black with a single yellow band (i.e. "new style colour scheme") and a red nose tip. The white stampings on it would have read "203" (in Kanji) on one side, and the filler date and location on the other side.
The Ho-203 casing also used to have ink stampings on them; highly similar to the ink markings on the projectile, these would have appeared in purple ink and on the front it would have read "Ho 203" (in Kanji), and the filler date and location on the back.

Cheers,
Olafo