40mm Ammo For British 2 Pounder Anti Tank Gun

[fificat]

I have noticed in write-ups of the 2 pounder AT gun, they talk about no HE ammo for use against other enemy AT guns and certain tanks and troops. BUT, I know that AA 40mm ammo had HE rounds. Is there no reason why 40mm AA HE ammo could not have been used in the 2 pounder AT gun??

 

[EOD]

Fificat, no AA ammo (40x310R) was used in the AT gun (40x305R) because of the different cases both rounds have.

I am somewhat surprised to read your statement since there were definately HE projectiles for the 40x305R 2pdr AT gun.

 

[fificat]

QF 2 pounder HE

Thanks EOD--Guess the different sized shells would mean no AA HE shells could be used in the QF 2 pounder. But, please take a look at this site

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_2_pounder

Also, other sites about the QF 2 pounder ordnance note the same thing. I would be interested in knowing about the AT HE ammo that you note was available to the QF 2 pounder AT guns.

 

[SG500]

Here's one type.
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/79603-2-pounder-tank-base-fuzed-HE
Dave.

 

[fificat]

Dave--This appears to be an AP round, rather than an HE round. Info I have read says HE for this gun was developed at the end of WWII, but was not issued to the QF 2 pounder AT guns.

 

[munfrosch]

Its described as a AP round, not a HE!

 

[SG500]

OK guys yes I'm sure you're right, no worries, I was going on the assumption there's a base fuze and a cavity for HE filling unlike the normal AP shot which are the commonly found 2 pounder versions.
Are you asking about the nose fuzed variation? I don't have a photo of one of those. The attached drawing may be of use.
There was also an experimental 2 pounder littlejohn HE version which didn't enter production. I put a photo of one on the forum a couple of years ago but can't find it now.
Dave.

 

[Quatermass]

Here's one type.
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/79603-2-pounder-tank-base-fuzed-HE
Dave.

I stated the correct designation for the AP shell in post #4 in the above link.

By 1951 there certainly was a true HE shell. Described in the armament training pamphlet for the Daimler armoured car as ‘Shell HE HV/T, Mk2’ utilising a No. 243 or 246 fuze.

This is the shell used with the Naval 2-PR.

A second round is described thus:

Shell HE HV/T Mk is designed to replace Shell HE HV/T Mk2. The principles of construction are similar to those of the Mk2 shell, but fitted with the fuze DA No. 255. The trajectory of this projectile is similar to the APCBC shot up to 1,600 yards.

Edit. Full details on the above shell where not available at the time the pamphlet was published.

 

[EOD]

Fificat, I once had a 2pdr AT gun HE shell (cartridge). It seems to be a regular war time production.

Here a manual excerpt:

 

[EOD]

More:

 

[Tony Williams]

By 1951 there certainly was a true HE shell. Described in the armament training pamphlet for the Daimler armoured car as ‘Shell HE HV/T, Mk2’ utilising a No. 243 or 246 fuze.

This is the shell used with the Naval 2-PR.

I do have a problem with this. The HV shell used in the 2 pdr No.1 naval "Pom pom" throughout WW2 looked identical to the HE shell used in the 2 pdr No.2 tank/anti-tank gun as shown in Dave's drawing above, with the same flat-nosed fuze. BUT (and it's a big "but") the weight of the Pom pom HV shell was 1 lb 11 oz, the weight of the T/AT HE shell was 2 lb 6 oz. That's a big difference.

 

[Gspragge]

Out of my area, but would the solid bottom and external tracer make that difference ? Given the huge difference in loadings between the short AA case and the long AT case, a solid projectile bottom might be a good idea ?

 

[Quatermass]

I do have a problem with this. The HV shell used in the 2 pdr No.1 naval "Pom pom" throughout WW2 looked identical to the HE shell used in the 2 pdr No.2 tank/anti-tank gun as shown in Dave's drawing above, with the same flat-nosed fuze. BUT (and it's a big "but") the weight of the Pom pom HV shell was 1 lb 11 oz, the weight of the T/AT HE shell was 2 lb 6 oz. That's a big difference.

Tony, depends on which source you use. The Daimler manual gives a weight of 2 lb 6 oz but the regulations for army ordnance services pamphlet posted above by EOD states that the 'Shell HE/T Mk2' has a filled and fuzed weight of 1 lb 10 oz 12 dr.

 

[Gspragge]

Not mine, but I thought the images would be interesting.

 

[Tony Williams]

Tony, depends on which source you use. The Daimler manual gives a weight of 2 lb 6 oz but the regulations for army ordnance services pamphlet posted above by EOD states that the 'Shell HE/T Mk2' has a filled and fuzed weight of 1 lb 10 oz 12 dr.

Curioser and curioser - my source is "Ammunition Information Manual No.9" which is an official publication going into great detail about ammunition for the "Ordnance QF 2-pr Gun" (including the Littlejohns) and this gives the following data on the Shell HE/T Mk 2:

Length of complete round: 17.577 in
Weight of complete round: 4 lb 2 oz
Length of projectile: 4.96 in
Weight of projectile: 2 lb 6 oz
Filling & Weight: RDW/BWX or TNT 2 oz 4.5 dr.

 

[2pounder]

think someone's book has a typo. error because the aa and atk shell are about the same length and seem to be about the same wall section so their weights cant be that different.

 

[Tony Williams]

think someone's book has a typo. error because the aa and atk shell are about the same length and seem to be about the same wall section so their weights cant be that different.

I think we're going to need some examples of both army and navy projectiles for measuring and weighing in order to settle this!

 

[Tony Williams]

I have a nicely repainted 2 pdr HE shell body with the usual flat-nosed impact fuze (you can see it in the No.1 case in the pic below). I don't know whether it was for the No.1 or No.2 case. Empty weight is 622 grams (22 oz, or 1 lb 6 oz) but the length inc. fuze is 5.94 inches - an inch longer, as well as getting on for a pound lighter, than the official specs on the 2 pdr No.2 I quoted above!

Any other data?

 

[Tony Williams]

Yet another bit of confusion. Hogg's book on British & American Artillery mentions a "Shell, HE Mk 2T" which was a pointed shell with a Base Percussion Fuze. I recall hearing about this one before: a very rare item from the late 1930s. If memory serves me right, there was a very similar late-war Australian shell used for bunker-busting in the Pacific war. These shells had much thicker bodies than the Pom pom HE, so could well have been both shorter and heavier.

To complicate matters further, the 40mm S Gun as fitted to Hurricane IID and IV ground attack planes (which of course used the 40x158R No.1 case) had its own HE shell, the HE Mk III.T which weighed 844 g - compared with c.750 g for the Pom pom HV shell, and 1,080 g quoted for the No.2 HE. My head is beginning to ache...

I think I may slowly be groping towards a conclusion here. There would seem to be two very different British 2 pdr HE shells used in the tank/AT No.2 case in WW2. The first was the base-fuzed shell which was short but heavy; the second was the nose-fuzed shell which was (probably) the same as the Pom Pom HV. The data for these two types seems to have become mixed up.

 

[2pounder]

Hoggs book gives the HE Mk2T as having a base percussion fuze 243! in fact his description of the shell makes little sense when read carefully.