4mm Centerfire

[Bob7.62W]

Ok, it's not so much identification, the tin lid says it all, "4mm centerfire exercise ammunition" (if my German is correct) my question is; What were/are these used in? There is no powder in the cases and the bullet is a 4mm lead ball, so short of euthanising a sick bluebottle, I can't see a practical use for these. The .22 rimfire is for scale.

 

[TimG]

4mm M20 - sub-calibre, indoor range.

http://www.waffenlager.net/ammo/4mm.html

TimG

 

[Anders]

I have a sub-caliber barrel made by Lothar Walther for my P38. It works like a charm. :tinysmile_grin_t: It is rifled and the accuracy is top notch. Adapter cartridges are needed and is not shown in my photo.

 

[Bob7.62W]

Thanks for the replies guys, I've had these for quite a while and wondered what practical use they had.

 

[exat808]

This calibre doesnt appear on the current Home Office antique/obsolete list. Do you need an FAC for possession?

 

[Andysarmoury]

These look like Flobert rimfire cartridges, not centrefire,these were used mainly for indoor Parlor pistols, i have a 6mm shotgun with a 18in barrel and its on my FAC you cant get the shot cartridges anymore but can get the little flobert ones.
Andy

 

[reccetrooper]

The rounds in the post by Bob7.62W are center fire, (in effect a bulleted primer), the rounds in the post by Andysarmoury are rimfire. The two rim profiles are different.

Both types require an FAC, as they are bulleted ammunition.

The Lothar Walther sub-caliber adaptor in Anders post, assuming it is rifled, requires an FAC. Technically it is a chambered spare barrel. (It appears that smoothbore adaptors, such as 12 bore to .410 adaptors, do not require a license) It is not antique, generally taken to mean pre-September 1939, so Section 58(2) does not apply.

The P38 mentioned would be Section 5 or possibly Section 7 in UK.

 

[Andysarmoury]

It doesn't make a lot of sense, the rim profiles are different i know but is it struck on the rim still? as my 4mm and 6 mm are bulleted primers too and don't contain any powder, confused :tinysmile_eyebrow_t

The rounds in the post by Bob7.62W are center fire, (in effect a bulleted primer), the rounds in the post by Andysarmoury are rimfire. The two rim profiles are different.

Both types require an FAC, as they are bulleted ammunition.

The Lothar Walther sub-caliber adaptor in Anders post, assuming it is rifled, requires an FAC. Technically it is a chambered spare barrel. (It appears that smoothbore adaptors, such as 12 bore to .410 adaptors, do not require a license) It is not antique, generally taken to mean pre-September 1939, so Section 58(2) does not apply.

The P38 mentioned would be Section 5 or possibly Section 7 in UK.

 

[Bob7.62W]

Andysarmoury; No, the 4mm in my picture are centrefire and are hit central, yours are rimfire.
As a Registered Firearms Dealer, my interpretation of the law agrees with reccetrooper. Different Police areas have different interpretations, if in doubt, ask your FEO!
.22 and 6mm are, in my experience, interchangeable. Eley used to make .22 shot cartridges, the modern Eley ones in the pic were made by CBC in Brazil.
Remington and CCI still make them. CCI have a clear plastic jacket over the shot, Remington are crimped.
Left to right, (all .22/6mm) 1. Eley 2. Remington, 3.CCI, 4. Old Eley rolled turn over copper, 5 Old Eley paper shot tube, 6.Peters paper shot tube, 7. Old Eley paper shot tube.

 

[reccetrooper]

4mm Flobert (rimfire), priming compound in the rim, struck on the rim.

4mm centerfire, (internally primed), priming compound beneath the case head, struck centrally.

There is a recently revived thread on the IAA forum about center fire .22 rounds that mentions 4.5mm and 4mm M20 centre fire. Look at the last post. If you search the IAA forum you will probably find more info.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/22-short-long-centerfire/6277/24

Internally primed centrefire cartridges that look like rimfire cartridges have been made in many different calibers, including the Benet primed .50-70 for the trapdoor Springfield.
Nice photo of an unstruck round here, http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/06_item_042.htm

 

[Andysarmoury]

Thanks for that, that's cleared that up But my 6mm shotgun i have will not except 22 rf
Cheers
Andy

Andysarmoury; No, the 4mm in my picture are centrefire and are hit central, yours are rimfire.
As a Registered Firearms Dealer, my interpretation of the law agrees with reccetrooper. Different Police areas have different interpretations, if in doubt, ask your FEO!
.22 and 6mm are, in my experience, interchangeable. Eley used to make .22 shot cartridges, the modern Eley ones in the pic were made by CBC in Brazil.
Remington and CCI still make them. CCI have a clear plastic jacket over the shot, Remington are crimped.
View attachment 131240Left to right, (all .22/6mm) 1. Eley 2. Remington, 3.CCI, 4. Old Eley rolled turn over copper, 5 Old Eley paper shot tube, 6.Peters paper shot tube, 7. Old Eley paper shot tube.

 

[Andysarmoury]

Thanks for the link very interesting, you learn something new every day
Andy

4mm Flobert (rimfire), priming compound in the rim, struck on the rim.

4mm centerfire, (internally primed), priming compound beneath the case head, struck centrally.

There is a recently revived thread on the IAA forum about center fire .22 rounds that mentions 4.5mm and 4mm M20 centre fire. Look at the last post. If you search the IAA forum you will probably find more info.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/22-short-long-centerfire/6277/24

Internally primed centrefire cartridges that look like rimfire cartridges have been made in many different calibers, including the Benet primed .50-70 for the trapdoor Springfield.
Nice photo of an unstruck round here, http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/06_item_042.htm

 

[spotter]

a reminder http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threa...lease-read-before-posting?p=284174#post284174