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66mm Practice Rocket
- Thread starter ammocat
- Start date
MissingSomething
Well-Known Member
Well... looking through my old Canadian Docs, I have found no mention for the M19 rocket. It is defenately a M72 rocket. The HE version is the M18. I would think that it is an experimental rocket as Canada was using the M20 Super Bazooka until the early '60's and the earliest M72 that I have seen was '66. I am wondering if the practice rocket was canned for the cost and a cheaper "sub-cal" round was adopted.
BTW, I have no documentation to back this up..... just guessing on my part. Would have to talk to an old ammo tech from the '60's to verify.
just my 2 cents...:withstupid:
BTW, I have no documentation to back this up..... just guessing on my part. Would have to talk to an old ammo tech from the '60's to verify.
just my 2 cents...:withstupid:
Chris 42 RQ
Well-Known Member
66 MM Practice Rocket
I would certainly agree with "Missing something"s notion that it is an "Experimental" item as the prefix "XM" is usually found on American and I believe Canadian experimental Munitions.
Thats my two pence worth !
I would certainly agree with "Missing something"s notion that it is an "Experimental" item as the prefix "XM" is usually found on American and I believe Canadian experimental Munitions.
Thats my two pence worth !
Thanks gentlemen for your 2 cents. I am surprised that there is no information on this even if it was only experimental. There is so much information about the 66mm HEAT rocket, various sub-caliber training rockets and new developments for the 66mm such as M72E8 with the Fire From Enclosure propulsion system and M72E10 with the blast/fragmentation anti-personnel rocket. I would have thought that there would be something mention of a practice rocket.
The only other piece of evidence that I have found that might indicate that there was a practice rocket is this photo I found on the net. Since HEAT warheads are black, this one is light coloured, possibly light blue.
Several old ammo techs are working on this as well and also have found nothing. By comparison I am a very young ammo tech.
Is there any chance someone has a copy of the Canadian Army Manual of Training for the M-72 Light Anti-Tank Weapon from the early 60s?
Cheers
The only other piece of evidence that I have found that might indicate that there was a practice rocket is this photo I found on the net. Since HEAT warheads are black, this one is light coloured, possibly light blue.
Several old ammo techs are working on this as well and also have found nothing. By comparison I am a very young ammo tech.
Is there any chance someone has a copy of the Canadian Army Manual of Training for the M-72 Light Anti-Tank Weapon from the early 60s?
Cheers
Attachments
MissingSomething
Well-Known Member
My oldest CDN one is '76 :sad:
I found some old dutch documentation where the M-19 is mentioned.
The document was written somewhere between 1960 and 1970. Here they speak of two diferent version, a M19 complete inert and one M19 with a live base fuze M412. only diference in markings is that the one with the live fuze has written the fuze markings on them. Markings for both are in white. We have a M19 in our collection which contained the live fuze. I can't read the lot number clearly but is says also DZ.
The document was written somewhere between 1960 and 1970. Here they speak of two diferent version, a M19 complete inert and one M19 with a live base fuze M412. only diference in markings is that the one with the live fuze has written the fuze markings on them. Markings for both are in white. We have a M19 in our collection which contained the live fuze. I can't read the lot number clearly but is says also DZ.
blu97,
Thanks for the info, that will change the direction of the search slightly. I will pass this along, I am sure more will be recovered and it will be interesting to see if more than one variant is recovered. Do you have a title for the document so I can try to source out a copy.
Cheers,
Thanks for the info, that will change the direction of the search slightly. I will pass this along, I am sure more will be recovered and it will be interesting to see if more than one variant is recovered. Do you have a title for the document so I can try to source out a copy.
Cheers,
Got the following info through UK and US reliable sources:
Well, this one is a challenge. At this point we can't find no data on the M19, but obviously it does exist. The 1961 manufacture date happens to be the year that the M72 LAW was adopted by the US Army. Development of the LAW began in 1958, so this is certainly an early production item. The Canadians, according to my references, adopted the LAW in the early 1970s.
The LS in the lot number is the code for the Lone Star Army Ammunition Plant, which did assemble/load the 66mm M72s. However, I have no reference to the DZ marking that makes any sense. The XM designation in the XM54 rocket motor is one used by the US and very few others.
I also have a vague reference to the Dutch having a similar round with a DZ marking on it. My recall on the manual though is that it has the subcaliber system in it.
My GUESS is that this is an US production item, early in the development of the LAW system. It was no doubt produced as an experimental item and in very limited quantities. The XM number only means that the rocket motor was a developmental item, not the complete round. I would assume that either because of cost or shipping/storage space, etc., that the US abandoned this full caliber practice round for the current subcaliber approach. I would also assume that we provided practice rounds to Canada for their evaluation. Since this version was evidently what we were playing with at the time, the M19 was what we provided to Canada for evaluation and/or firing practice. If we were providing the LAWs to Canada, it only makes sense that when we converted to the M73 subcaliber system that the M19 disappeared from both countries inventories. Since most of the external surface of the rounds are aluminum they could lay out on a range for a long, long time and still look as good as this one on the surface.
I would greatly appreciate a copy of the Dutch document, specially since there is mention of a "live" fuze and that we have found quite a lot of the practice round buried in a pit. In the mean time, here are additional pictures of the item.
Cheers
Well, this one is a challenge. At this point we can't find no data on the M19, but obviously it does exist. The 1961 manufacture date happens to be the year that the M72 LAW was adopted by the US Army. Development of the LAW began in 1958, so this is certainly an early production item. The Canadians, according to my references, adopted the LAW in the early 1970s.
The LS in the lot number is the code for the Lone Star Army Ammunition Plant, which did assemble/load the 66mm M72s. However, I have no reference to the DZ marking that makes any sense. The XM designation in the XM54 rocket motor is one used by the US and very few others.
I also have a vague reference to the Dutch having a similar round with a DZ marking on it. My recall on the manual though is that it has the subcaliber system in it.
My GUESS is that this is an US production item, early in the development of the LAW system. It was no doubt produced as an experimental item and in very limited quantities. The XM number only means that the rocket motor was a developmental item, not the complete round. I would assume that either because of cost or shipping/storage space, etc., that the US abandoned this full caliber practice round for the current subcaliber approach. I would also assume that we provided practice rounds to Canada for their evaluation. Since this version was evidently what we were playing with at the time, the M19 was what we provided to Canada for evaluation and/or firing practice. If we were providing the LAWs to Canada, it only makes sense that when we converted to the M73 subcaliber system that the M19 disappeared from both countries inventories. Since most of the external surface of the rounds are aluminum they could lay out on a range for a long, long time and still look as good as this one on the surface.
I would greatly appreciate a copy of the Dutch document, specially since there is mention of a "live" fuze and that we have found quite a lot of the practice round buried in a pit. In the mean time, here are additional pictures of the item.
Cheers
Attachments
sgtlynn
Well-Known Member
I suspect that Canadian adoption was in fact late 1960's, only because the first I fired was in the summer of 1970. Not a practice rocket, the only ones we ever saw were live. Subcals only came into Canadian Service in the late 1980's or at least that was the first we saw them.
Here the pics from our item. Intresting are the markings on the warhead "FUZE M412" which states the precence of a live fuze, and the markingson the rocket motor "ROCKET, PRACTICE 66mm, AT XM-AT E1. Further more it is also loaded in 8-61 and also marked XM 54 in yellow.
Attachments
66mm Practice M19
Received the following info from a scientist at NammoTalley Inc:
You may, or most likely not know, that the M72 LAW system was derived from a rifle grenade that the US developed in the 1950s. I have an old USMC infantry manual some where that has a picture of what looks very much like an M72 rocket on the barrel of the service rifle ready to fire.
The history of the LAW program included utilizing the basic components that were in storage for the rifle grenade. The Army program to develop the self-contained LAW was sold on using existing inventories that exceeded 700,000 warheads (called M19). It was later in the program that Picatinny indicated they did not want to use the M19's and wanted to develop another better warhead. Initially, Eastern Tool and Manufacturing Company made the warhead until Picatinny developed a precision cone, and that is when MB Associates became involved in the program. Contrary to the Wikipedia article, the original LAW was developed by the Hesse-Eastern company. Talley joined the program in
1981 to lead the effort that replaced the M72A2 / M72A3 rounds with the new, upgraded M72A4, A5, A6, A7, and M72A9 ASM rounds now in service.
Development of the M72 was started in 1959, with development and qualification tests continuing until the system was Type Classified in late 1962. Production of the basic M72 up through M72A2 was done by Lone Star AAP. They did load some inert warheads in 1961; they were rifle grenade warheads, M19's, containing an M210 fuze, which was a predecessor to the M412 fuze. The nose cap was slightly dome-shaped as opposed to the current item, which is flat. The rounds were loaded with a red-wax/resin material, which simulated the weight and density of Comp B and, of course, the specific gravity. These warheads were loaded on motors that were not yet qualified and were sometimes used for qualification of other components. The XM designation on the motor indicates an experimental or engineering modification to the standard item, and the closure (joint between the warhead and the motor case) is different than the version that went into production.
No one remembers ever shipping them to Canada, or anwhere else for that matter, other than US Army testing. We do know there was a test run at Ft. Churchill in Canada and, of course, we did the cold qualification at Ft. Greeley, Alaska. Final qualification used the newly developed warhead for the LAW system, and not the rifle grenade warhead. If these rounds were loaded at Day & Zimmermann in 1961, as indicated by the marking, these rounds had to be used for some form of testing and/or interim qualification of other components. Only a small quantity of the M19's were ever loaded, according to some of oour old team members who worked the basic QT and production programs, and again they did not inert load many M19's. Most of them were sent to our test range for various tests, many of which were done at ranges located on Cape Cod and part of Otis Air Force Base outside of Falmouth, Massachusetts.
Find attached a couple of pictures showing both the Rifle Grenade M31 and the Rkt Practice 66mm M19. Quite similar.
Received the following info from a scientist at NammoTalley Inc:
You may, or most likely not know, that the M72 LAW system was derived from a rifle grenade that the US developed in the 1950s. I have an old USMC infantry manual some where that has a picture of what looks very much like an M72 rocket on the barrel of the service rifle ready to fire.
The history of the LAW program included utilizing the basic components that were in storage for the rifle grenade. The Army program to develop the self-contained LAW was sold on using existing inventories that exceeded 700,000 warheads (called M19). It was later in the program that Picatinny indicated they did not want to use the M19's and wanted to develop another better warhead. Initially, Eastern Tool and Manufacturing Company made the warhead until Picatinny developed a precision cone, and that is when MB Associates became involved in the program. Contrary to the Wikipedia article, the original LAW was developed by the Hesse-Eastern company. Talley joined the program in
1981 to lead the effort that replaced the M72A2 / M72A3 rounds with the new, upgraded M72A4, A5, A6, A7, and M72A9 ASM rounds now in service.
Development of the M72 was started in 1959, with development and qualification tests continuing until the system was Type Classified in late 1962. Production of the basic M72 up through M72A2 was done by Lone Star AAP. They did load some inert warheads in 1961; they were rifle grenade warheads, M19's, containing an M210 fuze, which was a predecessor to the M412 fuze. The nose cap was slightly dome-shaped as opposed to the current item, which is flat. The rounds were loaded with a red-wax/resin material, which simulated the weight and density of Comp B and, of course, the specific gravity. These warheads were loaded on motors that were not yet qualified and were sometimes used for qualification of other components. The XM designation on the motor indicates an experimental or engineering modification to the standard item, and the closure (joint between the warhead and the motor case) is different than the version that went into production.
No one remembers ever shipping them to Canada, or anwhere else for that matter, other than US Army testing. We do know there was a test run at Ft. Churchill in Canada and, of course, we did the cold qualification at Ft. Greeley, Alaska. Final qualification used the newly developed warhead for the LAW system, and not the rifle grenade warhead. If these rounds were loaded at Day & Zimmermann in 1961, as indicated by the marking, these rounds had to be used for some form of testing and/or interim qualification of other components. Only a small quantity of the M19's were ever loaded, according to some of oour old team members who worked the basic QT and production programs, and again they did not inert load many M19's. Most of them were sent to our test range for various tests, many of which were done at ranges located on Cape Cod and part of Otis Air Force Base outside of Falmouth, Massachusetts.
Find attached a couple of pictures showing both the Rifle Grenade M31 and the Rkt Practice 66mm M19. Quite similar.
Attachments
MissingSomething
Well-Known Member
Yes... thanks for the info.
Very interesting. If you don't mind me asking Ammocat, which range did you find it on?? Did you also find out any reference to the experimental CS round for the M72??
About 4 years ago or so, I was supervising a group from "X-Tech" in Suffield, doing a range clearance as they don't have extensive experience with chemical munitions and we recovered remains of 2x 66mm CS rounds. At the time, I found a reference came regarding the manufacture of these test rounds. We started a discussion on these rounds at work a week ago and do you think I can find the reference that I used or the pictures that I took at the time. Any info you can provide would be appeciated.
About 4 years ago or so, I was supervising a group from "X-Tech" in Suffield, doing a range clearance as they don't have extensive experience with chemical munitions and we recovered remains of 2x 66mm CS rounds. At the time, I found a reference came regarding the manufacture of these test rounds. We started a discussion on these rounds at work a week ago and do you think I can find the reference that I used or the pictures that I took at the time. Any info you can provide would be appeciated.
66mm CS Rocket
Garand,
Sorry for not responding sooner. I have been off the net for some time. The 66mm Practice was found in Borden and passed along to Ammotech, and through him I came into contact with it.
With regards to the 66mm CS, I have found very little info.
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/m74rocket.html
Thats about all I ever found and since I was trying to find info the Practice I gave up researching the CS variant or the incendiary one.
Do you have any photos of the CS version that you can post or send to me? I am a new arrival at the ammo school and I am sure we could incorporate this into a range clearance lesson as some of the strange items found.
Cheers,
Garand,
Sorry for not responding sooner. I have been off the net for some time. The 66mm Practice was found in Borden and passed along to Ammotech, and through him I came into contact with it.
With regards to the 66mm CS, I have found very little info.
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/m74rocket.html
Thats about all I ever found and since I was trying to find info the Practice I gave up researching the CS variant or the incendiary one.
Do you have any photos of the CS version that you can post or send to me? I am a new arrival at the ammo school and I am sure we could incorporate this into a range clearance lesson as some of the strange items found.
Cheers,
ammocat, I gather you are a 921? I went through the school in '79, if they haven't buried the course pictures I'm there. No I checked our archieves and with base ammo section library and no one knows what happened to the pictures unfortunately. Both projectile bodies were marked with the standard markings and colour coding for NATO CS munitions.
Course Photo
Garand,
Again I have been off of the net for quite awhile. Yes, I am a 921. When I did my QL-3/QL-5 most of the course photos were gone and they had course plaques on the wall. Now, the photos are back up. There are three course photos for 79, 7803 (course ended in 79), 7801 (A. Haines is in the photo I think), 7802 (R Matheson is in the photo). I use these name, because these are the only people I actually know.
Still getting my feet wet here, but having lots of fun with the QL-3 course.
Cheers
Garand,
Again I have been off of the net for quite awhile. Yes, I am a 921. When I did my QL-3/QL-5 most of the course photos were gone and they had course plaques on the wall. Now, the photos are back up. There are three course photos for 79, 7803 (course ended in 79), 7801 (A. Haines is in the photo I think), 7802 (R Matheson is in the photo). I use these name, because these are the only people I actually know.
Still getting my feet wet here, but having lots of fun with the QL-3 course.
Cheers